BREAKING NEWS: airliner missing within Egyptian FIR
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These guys also specialise in putting their horrific deeds on display, don't they? How come they accomplished all this, yet didn't bother with a tripod and proper camera, so they could show us in glorious HD? Track the plane for a minute or so and show us people falling? It's too much of a squandered opportunity, imho.
slats, there also can be that it was bombing but this video is fake, isn't it?
But ISIS currently have a reputation that all recordings have been genuine and they have always performed whatever atrocity they have released video of. I suspect ISIS value that reputation.
That reputation takes a hit if this is a fake.
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It's like saying Holland or Malaysia did it as retribution for MH17
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitaly_Kaloyev
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There is of course a precedent for relatives of victims taking revenge after an airliner has crashed:
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Of course, the famous video could be genuine AND fake...
One can easily imagine that we see footage of the actual aircraft and the flash from the explosion, but poorly edited fake black smoke was then added.
Why ? Because it didn't look "impressive" enough
Don't forget the aircraft probably carried on flying for a while before breaking up - this might have taken it out of discernible range... Also, it may explain why no footage of the breakup and downfall...
One can easily imagine that we see footage of the actual aircraft and the flash from the explosion, but poorly edited fake black smoke was then added.
Why ? Because it didn't look "impressive" enough
Don't forget the aircraft probably carried on flying for a while before breaking up - this might have taken it out of discernible range... Also, it may explain why no footage of the breakup and downfall...
Don't forget the aircraft probably carried on flying for a while before breaking up
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FDR and cabin pressure
StopDropRoll, posted earlier a video of an experiment.
It shows the dynamics of an explosion inside of a real aircraft.
See in video at 3:03
https://youtu.be/Fi1_1l7M8FA?t=183
Notice the pressure gauge mounted near the cockpit. The pressure clearly increases before dropping.
The shock wave meets first the cabin pressure sensors, before to be heard in cockpit microphones(CVR). The FDR should show the cabin pressure increase.
It shows the dynamics of an explosion inside of a real aircraft.
See in video at 3:03
https://youtu.be/Fi1_1l7M8FA?t=183
Notice the pressure gauge mounted near the cockpit. The pressure clearly increases before dropping.
The shock wave meets first the cabin pressure sensors, before to be heard in cockpit microphones(CVR). The FDR should show the cabin pressure increase.
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ISIS of Sinai was claiming credit for this. They are the minor league of ISIS. If the ISIS HQ was fully involved in this plot, they might be expected to have better video production quality.
As for the black smoke, that is typical of an overly rich fuel mixture - more fuel than oxygen. Low O2 levels at 30k feet and a ruptured fuel tank would probably burn very sooty.
As for the black smoke, that is typical of an overly rich fuel mixture - more fuel than oxygen. Low O2 levels at 30k feet and a ruptured fuel tank would probably burn very sooty.
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Press conference provided little info - CVR had a "noise" at the end.
Egypt is checking video footage at Sharm al-Sheikh airport for any suspicious activity linked to the Russian plane crash in Sinai, officials said on Saturday, in the clearest sign yet that they believe it could have been targeted by militants.
The government has repeatedly said it would be premature to blame Islamic State fighters in Sinai for the crash, despite Western suspicions that the plane was brought down by a bomb and a claim by the Islamist militants that they were responsible.
News that officials were reviewing camera footage at the airport came shortly before investigators who have examined the plane's black boxes were due to speak about their work so far.
"We want to determine if, for instance, anyone sneaked past security officials or the metal detectors. We are also trying to determine if there was any unusual activity among policemen or airport staff," one of the officials told Reuters.
The government has repeatedly said it would be premature to blame Islamic State fighters in Sinai for the crash, despite Western suspicions that the plane was brought down by a bomb and a claim by the Islamist militants that they were responsible.
News that officials were reviewing camera footage at the airport came shortly before investigators who have examined the plane's black boxes were due to speak about their work so far.
"We want to determine if, for instance, anyone sneaked past security officials or the metal detectors. We are also trying to determine if there was any unusual activity among policemen or airport staff," one of the officials told Reuters.
Press conference provided little info - CVR had a "noise" at the end.
Instead we had empty chairs and the Chief stating he did not know why others did not participate!
Perhaps there is a degree of tension within the multinational group of investigators.
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Transcript Egypt press conference
Let me try to transcribe what has been said in english (my arabic is not good enough):
Originally announced press conference start 1700EGY time. Started 1715 EGY time.
Introduction by a gentleman ... but CNN had no sound at that moment.
Then start by Chairman Mr. Ayman al-Muqaddam ... Head of the Commission of Inquiry.
Starts with condolences.
Some explanation apparently why he was sitting there alone. But not clear to me yet (will check the recording of the press conference that i made).
Dignitaries visited on day 1 after the accident. Egyptian airforce send 5 planes with the Egyptian and international investigators to the site. Egyptian army guarded the site. Major pieces photographed by the investigators and their geo coordinates taken.
Investigators 47 plus advisors 11 to total of 58 participating.
EGY 29 + RUS 7 + EIRE 3 + FRA 6 + GER 2, + Airbus advisors 10, EASA 1 = 58 persons participating.
5 groups have been formed:
1. recorders,
2. accident site,
3. operations - crew, atc, airline information, meteorology,
4. aircraft and systems,
5. medical, forensics,
ALL groups are still in the Information Gathering Phase.
Under Egyptian Law 28, ICAO Annex 13.
Weather at the moment (today) is bad. When weather improves investigators make new visits.
Wreckage will be moved to Cairo and investigated methodically.
Aircraft wreckage will be searched for computers with non-volatile-memory.
Objectives of the investigation:
1. debris area is wide, 13km long, which suggests an inflight breakup, a number of parts are still missing, search underway for them,
2. observation ... origin of breakup still unknown,
3. recorders were recovered on Day 1, both successfully downloaded, and preliminary review performed,
FDR shows TO at UTC 03-50-06, last 04-13-20, total duration 23 min 14 sec <have to check this>,
Last ALT 30,888 ft and aircraft in CLB Mode.
Last recorded speed 281 knots.
Modes (autopilot) A/P1 engaged till the end of the recording.
4. CVR
- first listening was done,
- at the moment the team is working on the transcript,
- we note that a noise was heard in the last second,
- spectral analysis on the recording will be performed by specialized labs,
- investigators got no intelligence from other parties... if parties have info please come forward.
5. A number of media reports make suggestions with information/intelligence said to be based on official sources. The investigation team has not had access to such information. We ask parties to provide that information to the investigation.
6. ALL scenarios are still open. There are no conclusions as yet.
Image (CNN?) shown in the background altitudes 3,000 - 20,000 - 25,000 - 29,600 - 33,000 - and as stated ending 30,888 while in CLB MODE.
The Chairman read it out in clear english. Then gave time for a limited number of questions. He says he has to return to his team - read investigation.
A rather furious sounding person present (CNN says a journalist) , starts normal then increasing in anger, demanded that the chairman spoke in arabic. After some noise exchanges and happenings the chairman started reading out the same declaration in arabic.
Chairman:"... i can read in arabic...if you want..."
Chairman:"...asked other parties to come over, but they decided not to participate (A0283 - in the press conference) ... perhaps they had other ... "...
+++
Apart from the transcript above ...
First impression. Clear explanation which you expect at this stage of the investigation. Was impressed by the statement being made in english first, also understand the demand for arabic of course. But the fact that all people killed were foreign might also be called 'being sensitive' to the relatives of those killed. Shows the extreme importance of clear communications during investigations. If the chairman had said something like "out of piety i make a statement in international english first, and then repeat it in arabic", that may have calmed the mood. Have to note that the introduction of the press conference as transmitted by CNN had no sound. So i could have missed something at the start.
The press conference was clear, up to what you expect, though rather late in delivery. But the promise is made that more regular conferences will be held from now. How everybody interpretates the contents ... i leave that upto the readers.
The conference provided information on a number of issues, including missing parts and information.
Note that the chairman talked about a NOISE and did not use the word EXPLOSION.
+++
CNN now says (after the conference) - after arabic translation - original press conference would have been by EGY Minister of Aviation and a RUS representative. And only at the start of the conference it became clear that it would be the Chairman. The journalist complaining about this absence and appartenly suggestion that there was a conspiracy.
Apparently the chairman also suggested that the sound could have come from exploding Lithium batteries.
+++
Originally announced press conference start 1700EGY time. Started 1715 EGY time.
Introduction by a gentleman ... but CNN had no sound at that moment.
Then start by Chairman Mr. Ayman al-Muqaddam ... Head of the Commission of Inquiry.
Starts with condolences.
Some explanation apparently why he was sitting there alone. But not clear to me yet (will check the recording of the press conference that i made).
Dignitaries visited on day 1 after the accident. Egyptian airforce send 5 planes with the Egyptian and international investigators to the site. Egyptian army guarded the site. Major pieces photographed by the investigators and their geo coordinates taken.
Investigators 47 plus advisors 11 to total of 58 participating.
EGY 29 + RUS 7 + EIRE 3 + FRA 6 + GER 2, + Airbus advisors 10, EASA 1 = 58 persons participating.
5 groups have been formed:
1. recorders,
2. accident site,
3. operations - crew, atc, airline information, meteorology,
4. aircraft and systems,
5. medical, forensics,
ALL groups are still in the Information Gathering Phase.
Under Egyptian Law 28, ICAO Annex 13.
Weather at the moment (today) is bad. When weather improves investigators make new visits.
Wreckage will be moved to Cairo and investigated methodically.
Aircraft wreckage will be searched for computers with non-volatile-memory.
Objectives of the investigation:
1. debris area is wide, 13km long, which suggests an inflight breakup, a number of parts are still missing, search underway for them,
2. observation ... origin of breakup still unknown,
3. recorders were recovered on Day 1, both successfully downloaded, and preliminary review performed,
FDR shows TO at UTC 03-50-06, last 04-13-20, total duration 23 min 14 sec <have to check this>,
Last ALT 30,888 ft and aircraft in CLB Mode.
Last recorded speed 281 knots.
Modes (autopilot) A/P1 engaged till the end of the recording.
4. CVR
- first listening was done,
- at the moment the team is working on the transcript,
- we note that a noise was heard in the last second,
- spectral analysis on the recording will be performed by specialized labs,
- investigators got no intelligence from other parties... if parties have info please come forward.
5. A number of media reports make suggestions with information/intelligence said to be based on official sources. The investigation team has not had access to such information. We ask parties to provide that information to the investigation.
6. ALL scenarios are still open. There are no conclusions as yet.
Image (CNN?) shown in the background altitudes 3,000 - 20,000 - 25,000 - 29,600 - 33,000 - and as stated ending 30,888 while in CLB MODE.
The Chairman read it out in clear english. Then gave time for a limited number of questions. He says he has to return to his team - read investigation.
A rather furious sounding person present (CNN says a journalist) , starts normal then increasing in anger, demanded that the chairman spoke in arabic. After some noise exchanges and happenings the chairman started reading out the same declaration in arabic.
Chairman:"... i can read in arabic...if you want..."
Chairman:"...asked other parties to come over, but they decided not to participate (A0283 - in the press conference) ... perhaps they had other ... "...
+++
Apart from the transcript above ...
First impression. Clear explanation which you expect at this stage of the investigation. Was impressed by the statement being made in english first, also understand the demand for arabic of course. But the fact that all people killed were foreign might also be called 'being sensitive' to the relatives of those killed. Shows the extreme importance of clear communications during investigations. If the chairman had said something like "out of piety i make a statement in international english first, and then repeat it in arabic", that may have calmed the mood. Have to note that the introduction of the press conference as transmitted by CNN had no sound. So i could have missed something at the start.
The press conference was clear, up to what you expect, though rather late in delivery. But the promise is made that more regular conferences will be held from now. How everybody interpretates the contents ... i leave that upto the readers.
The conference provided information on a number of issues, including missing parts and information.
Note that the chairman talked about a NOISE and did not use the word EXPLOSION.
+++
CNN now says (after the conference) - after arabic translation - original press conference would have been by EGY Minister of Aviation and a RUS representative. And only at the start of the conference it became clear that it would be the Chairman. The journalist complaining about this absence and appartenly suggestion that there was a conspiracy.
Apparently the chairman also suggested that the sound could have come from exploding Lithium batteries.
+++
Last edited by A0283; 7th Nov 2015 at 16:11. Reason: going over the recording of the press conference and updating this text to try to get it more complete
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Notable that Chief fronted the media alone. You would normally expect a panel as a gesture of consensus and cooperation.
Nothing to tell beyond what was leaked already. No positive proof of any version yet, so no sense to participate.
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I have seen many videos that look clearly fake whilst in fact they are instead genuine. Poor quality and in some cases inflated post video enhancements can confuse us, nobody has officially confirmed that the ISIS video of this incident is 100% fake. Many experts have said that it is the wrong aircraft type, which is not the case in my opinion: I see the correct aircraft type and the location of explosion on aircraft seems to coincide with latest developments from the investigation Teams and info passed to governments by intelligence agencies, e.g. burnt bodies sitting at the rear, explosive device in hold etc.
Do you remember the ATR72 crash video in Taiwan?... this video also looked fake for various reasons but it is 100% genuine. Unprofessional but genuine.
Definitely the ISIS video is very badly made, it is unprofessional and possibly full of post-video editing enhancements but the video itself might contain the "artificially enhanced" images of this incident. Previous posts have explained why video timing could be an easy win for those on the ground.
The fact remains that if we combine the ISIS video with the recent developments it is too much of a coincidence that everything seems to match. A very unprofessional video does not mean fake. It could easily be a genuine video that has been very badly edited for propaganda purposes.
Those who made the video also stated that "they 'brought down' the plane on the first anniversary of the Sinai group's signed allegiance to Isis/Daesh"
which cannot be another coincidence as the anniversary date seems to be in fact correct.
Do you remember the ATR72 crash video in Taiwan?... this video also looked fake for various reasons but it is 100% genuine. Unprofessional but genuine.
Definitely the ISIS video is very badly made, it is unprofessional and possibly full of post-video editing enhancements but the video itself might contain the "artificially enhanced" images of this incident. Previous posts have explained why video timing could be an easy win for those on the ground.
The fact remains that if we combine the ISIS video with the recent developments it is too much of a coincidence that everything seems to match. A very unprofessional video does not mean fake. It could easily be a genuine video that has been very badly edited for propaganda purposes.
Those who made the video also stated that "they 'brought down' the plane on the first anniversary of the Sinai group's signed allegiance to Isis/Daesh"
which cannot be another coincidence as the anniversary date seems to be in fact correct.
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Irrespective of the actual cause of this terrible crash, ISIL have scored yet one more coup in their relentless attack on the West. At almost no financial cost to themselves they have caused major airlines to make changes which will bring misery and extra cost to thousands of everyday tourists who just want a holiday. The security ramifications (utterrly laughable if not so tragic) will linger on for years.
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The press conference descended into farce with a questionnaire shouting at the chief about why the statement was not read out in Arabic.
This sums up what is wrong with the world and the region in particular.
Don't they realise that everyone that died on that plane was foreign? Do they not realise that SES is completely dependent on tourism and that this is a story of worldwide interest. They are making idiots of themselves shouting why is this not in Arabic!
I have first hand experience of working with the Egyptian authorities and I am not feeling warm and fuzzy about their capability, their openness and their independence from government influence. The fact that he said " his people were waiting for him" and he couldn't take more questions is an example that they cannot just be straight and only speak in rhymes. Why not just say, that is it and I am not going to answer more questions.....He is the head investigator after all!!!!
Deliberate act, no doubt, from day one. Either an event carried out by someone onboard or a device planted. Let's ignore the stupid, amatuar video posted by IS and concentrate on the event itself.
This sums up what is wrong with the world and the region in particular.
Don't they realise that everyone that died on that plane was foreign? Do they not realise that SES is completely dependent on tourism and that this is a story of worldwide interest. They are making idiots of themselves shouting why is this not in Arabic!
I have first hand experience of working with the Egyptian authorities and I am not feeling warm and fuzzy about their capability, their openness and their independence from government influence. The fact that he said " his people were waiting for him" and he couldn't take more questions is an example that they cannot just be straight and only speak in rhymes. Why not just say, that is it and I am not going to answer more questions.....He is the head investigator after all!!!!
Deliberate act, no doubt, from day one. Either an event carried out by someone onboard or a device planted. Let's ignore the stupid, amatuar video posted by IS and concentrate on the event itself.