BREAKING NEWS: airliner missing within Egyptian FIR
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I'm struck by the similarity of these three holes in the picture's foreground to shrapnel damage:
Can anyone suggest how else a wing impacting inverted could have sustained these sharply defined, punched inward, holes?
Can anyone suggest how else a wing impacting inverted could have sustained these sharply defined, punched inward, holes?
@ Modesto
You speak with the wisdom of someone who saw and knows. Having called that fine land home for some years, I can only second your every word.
Ahlan wa'Sahlan
You speak with the wisdom of someone who saw and knows. Having called that fine land home for some years, I can only second your every word.
Ahlan wa'Sahlan
The EASA Safety Information Bulletin for North Sinai has been around since last year:
http://ad.easa.europa.eu/blob/SIB_20...IB_2014-30R1_1
There has been much mis-information about this zone, and airlines who do and don't fly through it. Worth reading it to find what it is we have been avoiding for a while now.
We route to avoid it (including above FL260), always.
http://ad.easa.europa.eu/blob/SIB_20...IB_2014-30R1_1
There has been much mis-information about this zone, and airlines who do and don't fly through it. Worth reading it to find what it is we have been avoiding for a while now.
We route to avoid it (including above FL260), always.
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Can anyone suggest how else a wing impacting inverted could have sustained these sharply defined, punched inward, holes?
http://www.theunhivedmind.com/wordpr...17370giant.jpg
You can see the many small pits on the surface of the MH17 panels just under the cockpit window.
Is that part of the A321 wingtip in the Egypt crash aluminum or plastic?
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Things that can happen when you lose the tail
It is fairly clear that the tail came off/ apart while inflight.
One of the major functions of the tail is to supply down force to balance the wing's pitching moment. If the tail is suddenly removed, the aircraft will pitch down abruptly and its pitch rate momentum may be sufficient to carry into another cycle if the initial pitchover does not destroy the wing integrity/symmetry completely.
Another function of the tail is to minimize yaw. With sufficient yaw, the static system may become pressurized by dynamic airflow causing altimetry measuring systems to indicate too low and rate of climb indications to go strongly negative. Likewise, if the aircraft then momentarily points back into the airflow, altitude will appear to increase and rate of climb will go strongly positive.
Once the aircraft pitches strongly nose down, deceleration will be extreme, and the inertial system will respond assuming it is still powered. The only source of electrical power is the engines, and the loss of data at ~FL280 is probably indicative that the engines were shed at that point. The RAT system probably would not function in such a chaotic environment.
One characteristic of Airbus C* aircraft control systems is that they attempt to maintain their velocity vector direction until disturbed by an outside force. The slight decrease in climb rate at 04:12:34 might result from air venting through a fuselage rupture causing a net nose down force.
Structural failures can be instantaneous, but frequently there is a cascading breakup sequence. I suspect that there was such a cascade of failures in this case leading to the obvious departure from controlled flight.
The FR24 data should be looked at in this context.
One of the major functions of the tail is to supply down force to balance the wing's pitching moment. If the tail is suddenly removed, the aircraft will pitch down abruptly and its pitch rate momentum may be sufficient to carry into another cycle if the initial pitchover does not destroy the wing integrity/symmetry completely.
Another function of the tail is to minimize yaw. With sufficient yaw, the static system may become pressurized by dynamic airflow causing altimetry measuring systems to indicate too low and rate of climb indications to go strongly negative. Likewise, if the aircraft then momentarily points back into the airflow, altitude will appear to increase and rate of climb will go strongly positive.
Once the aircraft pitches strongly nose down, deceleration will be extreme, and the inertial system will respond assuming it is still powered. The only source of electrical power is the engines, and the loss of data at ~FL280 is probably indicative that the engines were shed at that point. The RAT system probably would not function in such a chaotic environment.
One characteristic of Airbus C* aircraft control systems is that they attempt to maintain their velocity vector direction until disturbed by an outside force. The slight decrease in climb rate at 04:12:34 might result from air venting through a fuselage rupture causing a net nose down force.
Structural failures can be instantaneous, but frequently there is a cascading breakup sequence. I suspect that there was such a cascade of failures in this case leading to the obvious departure from controlled flight.
The FR24 data should be looked at in this context.
That looks not unlike what happens when aluminum melts, and then drops away when the oxide layer holding it together breaks. Usually when I'm about to put the filler rod to it . . .
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Hundredpercent, can you comment on the 260 restriction with a presumed threat ceiling of 15k?
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Has there been sign of HS ?
If we make the guess that there was a rear pressure bulkhead failure, would that not potentially carry away some/all of HS?
The pics I've seen show the empennage but with only a somewhat fractured VS....
If we make the guess that there was a rear pressure bulkhead failure, would that not potentially carry away some/all of HS?
The pics I've seen show the empennage but with only a somewhat fractured VS....
100+ posts and six pages down only two meaningful pieces of information emerged since I posted a summary (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5...ml#post9164634) this morning, the satellite map of the main wreckage locations and the video of the crash site, both confirming my initial assessment.
It is now confirmed that the tailplane separated early in the breakup sequence (the large tail part is located 2.3 kilometres from the main wreckage), with most of the rear fuselage disintegrating up till the wing box, however front of that the structure remained essentially intact and fell to the ground in one piece.
What is highly significant (and I'm surprised nobody else picked this up) is that the entire horizontal stabilizer is missing from the tail wreckage. On some of the published photos it is possible to see that the tail cone aft of the rear pressure bulkhead with the HS structure and APU has cleanly broken away. The tail cone with the APU is located about 400 metres to the South of the tail structure, however I have not seen any photo or video of the Horizontal Stabilizeter (perhaps it is the piece of wreckage marked on the map another couple of hundred metres south of the APU/tailcone).
We do not yet know whether the separation of the tail was a cause or effect, however the tail structure is a fairly strong one and usually survives low velocity ground impacts in one piece even if the rest of the airplane disintegrates. A rupture of the rear pressure bulkhead could produce exactly the kind of damage to the tail as we are seeing, and would render the aircraft instantly uncontrollable.
Of course an alternate explanation would be an explosion in the rear fuselage, but the lack of any credible claim for responsibility makes that scenario more unlikely (such actions are typically made to publicise a cause, no matter how perverted it may be, keeping silent about it defeats the whole point).
It is now confirmed that the tailplane separated early in the breakup sequence (the large tail part is located 2.3 kilometres from the main wreckage), with most of the rear fuselage disintegrating up till the wing box, however front of that the structure remained essentially intact and fell to the ground in one piece.
What is highly significant (and I'm surprised nobody else picked this up) is that the entire horizontal stabilizer is missing from the tail wreckage. On some of the published photos it is possible to see that the tail cone aft of the rear pressure bulkhead with the HS structure and APU has cleanly broken away. The tail cone with the APU is located about 400 metres to the South of the tail structure, however I have not seen any photo or video of the Horizontal Stabilizeter (perhaps it is the piece of wreckage marked on the map another couple of hundred metres south of the APU/tailcone).
We do not yet know whether the separation of the tail was a cause or effect, however the tail structure is a fairly strong one and usually survives low velocity ground impacts in one piece even if the rest of the airplane disintegrates. A rupture of the rear pressure bulkhead could produce exactly the kind of damage to the tail as we are seeing, and would render the aircraft instantly uncontrollable.
Of course an alternate explanation would be an explosion in the rear fuselage, but the lack of any credible claim for responsibility makes that scenario more unlikely (such actions are typically made to publicise a cause, no matter how perverted it may be, keeping silent about it defeats the whole point).
FX Guru
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I think it would be fairly obvious if this plane had been shot down by a SAM. It was evident from the word go that MH17 was and that was with interested parties at the crash site and in the area trying to cover it up.
You would need a BUK-style missile to get to a plane's cruise height. ISIS don't have that sort of weaponry. Even if mobile systems did fall into their hands in Libya (which is highly doubtful) you can't drive them across the desert to Sinai without someone noticing.
My son went through Sharm earlier this year. He says the security was 'standard' although there were loads of army guards there.
You would need a BUK-style missile to get to a plane's cruise height. ISIS don't have that sort of weaponry. Even if mobile systems did fall into their hands in Libya (which is highly doubtful) you can't drive them across the desert to Sinai without someone noticing.
My son went through Sharm earlier this year. He says the security was 'standard' although there were loads of army guards there.
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To be fair, I did ask just recently about the HS a few posts up....
I've been wondering if a RPB blowout would blow it away from the rest of the empennage.
Wondering if they have found it, as it does not seem to be part of what's left of the tail.....
I've been wondering if a RPB blowout would blow it away from the rest of the empennage.
Wondering if they have found it, as it does not seem to be part of what's left of the tail.....
I think it would be fairly obvious if this plane had been shot down by a SAM. It was evident from the word go that MH17 was and that was with interested parties at the crash site and in the area trying to cover it up.
You would need a BUK-style missile to get to a plane's cruise height. ISIS don't have that sort of weaponry. Even if mobile systems did fall into their hands in Libya (which is highly doubtful) you can't drive them across the desert to Sinai without someone noticing.
My son went through Sharm earlier this year. He says the security was 'standard' although there were loads of army guards there.
You would need a BUK-style missile to get to a plane's cruise height. ISIS don't have that sort of weaponry. Even if mobile systems did fall into their hands in Libya (which is highly doubtful) you can't drive them across the desert to Sinai without someone noticing.
My son went through Sharm earlier this year. He says the security was 'standard' although there were loads of army guards there.
@ Smott999
Indeed you did, while I was typing.
The missing HS together with the APU and the entire tail cone is consistent with a RPB rupture. Given that the rest of the tail structure has reached the ground relatively whole and intact, if this was indeed the case the investigators probably know it already.
Indeed you did, while I was typing.
The missing HS together with the APU and the entire tail cone is consistent with a RPB rupture. Given that the rest of the tail structure has reached the ground relatively whole and intact, if this was indeed the case the investigators probably know it already.
Chronus
Not conclusive
There are plenty of other explanations and evidence to examine.
The absence of ground scorch marks around the well incinerated centre section debris field suggests a large part of the airframe was ablaze before impact with terrain. It exhibits the hall marks of an intense dynamic fuel fed fire, consuming much of the centre section of the airframe in flight, at altitude.
There are plenty of other explanations and evidence to examine.
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Honestly I can't think of anything less transparent than a joint Russian-Egyptian investigation
I have enough faith in Russian investigators. You can say what you want about Russians, but they have some excellent aviators, engineers, and experts. I do think they will be able to discover what happened. There should be enough clues now, wreckage, recorders, radar data, mx records; further, there will be quite a bit of public pressure in Russia to figure this out.
I have enough faith in Russian investigators. You can say what you want about Russians, but they have some excellent aviators, engineers, and experts. I do think they will be able to discover what happened. There should be enough clues now, wreckage, recorders, radar data, mx records; further, there will be quite a bit of public pressure in Russia to figure this out.
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Flaw Found In Airbus Rudders: NTSB Orders Inspection Of AA 587 Aircraft | March 31, 2006 | www.rockawave.com | Wave of Long Island
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LOMAPASEO
Neither did I suggest it was "conclusive" nor did I ever entertain such thought.
"There are plenty of other explanations and evidence to examine."
But of course there is much evidence to examine and am sure these will be considered as and when they become known.
My comments were no more than observations derived from the photographic evidence appearing on this forum. Metal scorched and melted by intense fire and heat laying on an arid soil which does not exhibit any signs of the effects of such fire and heat. Would it therefore be incorrect to assume that there was no fuel discharged from ruptured tanks when a section of the aircraft impacted the ground. If this assumption is correct, would it not reasonably follow that the fuel must have burned whilst the aircraft, intact or otherwise, was in the air.
Do you have any other explanations or evidence for us to examine and comment on.
Neither did I suggest it was "conclusive" nor did I ever entertain such thought.
"There are plenty of other explanations and evidence to examine."
But of course there is much evidence to examine and am sure these will be considered as and when they become known.
My comments were no more than observations derived from the photographic evidence appearing on this forum. Metal scorched and melted by intense fire and heat laying on an arid soil which does not exhibit any signs of the effects of such fire and heat. Would it therefore be incorrect to assume that there was no fuel discharged from ruptured tanks when a section of the aircraft impacted the ground. If this assumption is correct, would it not reasonably follow that the fuel must have burned whilst the aircraft, intact or otherwise, was in the air.
Do you have any other explanations or evidence for us to examine and comment on.