Low Cost Carriers "CuttingCorners"!!
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Low Cost Carriers "CuttingCorners"!!
Just seen a preview of tomorrow's Times front page.
Headline will claim that the low cost carriers are "compromising safety by disregarding ATC instructions."
Any comments?
ETR
Headline will claim that the low cost carriers are "compromising safety by disregarding ATC instructions."
Any comments?
ETR
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Look, I'm not a low cost employee and some of you may know I'm not a big fan of one in particular (no names, nay even hints needed, right).
I just want to say to all those who are going to start spurting rubbish that we can't have it both ways guys: you can't spit on the graves of journalists and then leap in to attack fellow workers on their spurious evidence. As always, there are probably one or two pilots out of a whole score of them (and probably all from the same company) who cause the rest of them to be tarnished with the same brush.
I would be interested to know where Times got it's gen from and also to hear from a few ATC'ers. If their gen (The Times') is bona fide, then they should be prepared to name names; if not, then it's just scaremongering and unnecessary at that.
So, fellow genuine ppruners, let's not fall into the same old trap (as I myself have done in the past, I hasten to add) and use this to low cost bash; it's counterproductive and unfair on those that work for them and are just as professional as we all like to think we are.
SS
I just want to say to all those who are going to start spurting rubbish that we can't have it both ways guys: you can't spit on the graves of journalists and then leap in to attack fellow workers on their spurious evidence. As always, there are probably one or two pilots out of a whole score of them (and probably all from the same company) who cause the rest of them to be tarnished with the same brush.
I would be interested to know where Times got it's gen from and also to hear from a few ATC'ers. If their gen (The Times') is bona fide, then they should be prepared to name names; if not, then it's just scaremongering and unnecessary at that.
So, fellow genuine ppruners, let's not fall into the same old trap (as I myself have done in the past, I hasten to add) and use this to low cost bash; it's counterproductive and unfair on those that work for them and are just as professional as we all like to think we are.
SS
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Budget airline pilots accused of putting safety at risk
By Ben Webster, Transport Correspondent. The Times
PILOTS working for some low-cost airlines are disobeying air traffic control instructions because they are under extreme pressure to meet tight schedules, according to a confidential safety report.
They allegedly try to save time by approaching airports too fast and are sometimes forced to abandon a landing because they come too close to the aircraft in front. An air traffic controller filed the safety report because of his concern that the growing number of incidents involving budget airlines could result in a crash.
The report, received by the industry’s Confidential Human Factors Incident Reporting Programme (Chirp), says that pilots are working under “extreme pressure on the flight deck to achieve programmed sector flight times”, and claims that as a result they are cutting corners.
Among the incidents reported are “failure to comply with assigned intermediate and final approach speeds . . . resulting in a go-around”. Pilots are also said to be ignoring longer flight paths designed to reduce noise disturbance, and as a result are flying too low or passing directly over villages.
The report says that controllers are receiving “overly aggressive responses”, with pilots repeatedly challenging information on visibility and on whether the aircraft in front has safely cleared the runway.
Some pilots are also using their radios to complain that they are not being given priority. One crew complained that another aircraft had been allowed to land first because they were not UK nationals.
“It is occurring with increasing frequency and, in my judgment, is due in part to the aggressively commercial ethos that exists within some airline companies,” the controller says.
He urges Chirp’s directors to intervene “before it reaches a level with the potential to compromise safety”.
The report is understood to refer principally to Ryanair and its base at Stansted in Essex. Ryanair, in common with airlines such as easyJet and Go, uses its aircraft more intensively than traditional airlines and leaves a gap of just 25 minutes between arriving and departing. Budget airline aircraft do four return journeys to Europe in a day, double the number of a typical British Airways jet.
David Learmount, safety editor of Flight International, said that the Chirp report indicated that pilots were under pressure to cut corners to achieve punctuality targets. “If this is a symptom of unacceptable pressure then it is only a matter of time before the pilots make a mistake that matters,” he said.
Ryanair was criticised yesterday by its arch-rival, easyJet, over the age of its fleet. The Irish-registered airline, which announced a record profit of £111 million last week, operates some of the oldest aircraft in Britain, with 20 Boeing 737-200s dating back to the start of the 1980s. They are not due to be retired until 2006. Stelios Haji-Ioannou, easyJet’s chairman, said: “Combine a low-cost airline with old aircraft and the odds of your reputation surviving an accident are against you.”
He cited the fate of ValuJet, an American low-cost airline which lost half its business and was forced to change its name after a crash in 1996.
EasyJet has a policy of buying only new aircraft. Half of Ryanair’s fleet is made up of second-hand aircraft retired by Lufthansa and other airlines. According to figures from Boeing, the 737-200 operated by Ryanair is more than twice as likely to develop a fault which prevents it from taking off as the more modern 737-300 operated by easyJet.
The Civil Aviation Authority (CAA), Britain’s safety regulator, has no control over Ryanair because it is registered in Dublin and regulated by the Irish Aviation Authority (IAA). While both regulators peform spot checks on their airlines, the IAA has only 60 staff in its safety division compared to more than 800 employed by the CAA.
Common safety standards apply across Europe on issues such as the maximum number of flying hours for pilots. Ryanair’s operating costs are less than half those of British Airways partly because its pilots spend up to 50 per cent longer in the air each year, completing an average of 840 hours compared with the legal maximum of 900.
Tim Jeans, Ryanair’s marketing director, said: “We don’t cut corners while the aircraft is airborne. Turnaround times are tighter but safety and security are an absolute priority and there is nothing we would do to compromise that.There is no more pressure on our pilots to depart on time than there is on British Airways.” EasyJet and Go said safety was paramount and they would take a dim viedw of any pilots unnecessarily challenging instructions.
By Ben Webster, Transport Correspondent. The Times
PILOTS working for some low-cost airlines are disobeying air traffic control instructions because they are under extreme pressure to meet tight schedules, according to a confidential safety report.
They allegedly try to save time by approaching airports too fast and are sometimes forced to abandon a landing because they come too close to the aircraft in front. An air traffic controller filed the safety report because of his concern that the growing number of incidents involving budget airlines could result in a crash.
The report, received by the industry’s Confidential Human Factors Incident Reporting Programme (Chirp), says that pilots are working under “extreme pressure on the flight deck to achieve programmed sector flight times”, and claims that as a result they are cutting corners.
Among the incidents reported are “failure to comply with assigned intermediate and final approach speeds . . . resulting in a go-around”. Pilots are also said to be ignoring longer flight paths designed to reduce noise disturbance, and as a result are flying too low or passing directly over villages.
The report says that controllers are receiving “overly aggressive responses”, with pilots repeatedly challenging information on visibility and on whether the aircraft in front has safely cleared the runway.
Some pilots are also using their radios to complain that they are not being given priority. One crew complained that another aircraft had been allowed to land first because they were not UK nationals.
“It is occurring with increasing frequency and, in my judgment, is due in part to the aggressively commercial ethos that exists within some airline companies,” the controller says.
He urges Chirp’s directors to intervene “before it reaches a level with the potential to compromise safety”.
The report is understood to refer principally to Ryanair and its base at Stansted in Essex. Ryanair, in common with airlines such as easyJet and Go, uses its aircraft more intensively than traditional airlines and leaves a gap of just 25 minutes between arriving and departing. Budget airline aircraft do four return journeys to Europe in a day, double the number of a typical British Airways jet.
David Learmount, safety editor of Flight International, said that the Chirp report indicated that pilots were under pressure to cut corners to achieve punctuality targets. “If this is a symptom of unacceptable pressure then it is only a matter of time before the pilots make a mistake that matters,” he said.
Ryanair was criticised yesterday by its arch-rival, easyJet, over the age of its fleet. The Irish-registered airline, which announced a record profit of £111 million last week, operates some of the oldest aircraft in Britain, with 20 Boeing 737-200s dating back to the start of the 1980s. They are not due to be retired until 2006. Stelios Haji-Ioannou, easyJet’s chairman, said: “Combine a low-cost airline with old aircraft and the odds of your reputation surviving an accident are against you.”
He cited the fate of ValuJet, an American low-cost airline which lost half its business and was forced to change its name after a crash in 1996.
EasyJet has a policy of buying only new aircraft. Half of Ryanair’s fleet is made up of second-hand aircraft retired by Lufthansa and other airlines. According to figures from Boeing, the 737-200 operated by Ryanair is more than twice as likely to develop a fault which prevents it from taking off as the more modern 737-300 operated by easyJet.
The Civil Aviation Authority (CAA), Britain’s safety regulator, has no control over Ryanair because it is registered in Dublin and regulated by the Irish Aviation Authority (IAA). While both regulators peform spot checks on their airlines, the IAA has only 60 staff in its safety division compared to more than 800 employed by the CAA.
Common safety standards apply across Europe on issues such as the maximum number of flying hours for pilots. Ryanair’s operating costs are less than half those of British Airways partly because its pilots spend up to 50 per cent longer in the air each year, completing an average of 840 hours compared with the legal maximum of 900.
Tim Jeans, Ryanair’s marketing director, said: “We don’t cut corners while the aircraft is airborne. Turnaround times are tighter but safety and security are an absolute priority and there is nothing we would do to compromise that.There is no more pressure on our pilots to depart on time than there is on British Airways.” EasyJet and Go said safety was paramount and they would take a dim viedw of any pilots unnecessarily challenging instructions.
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CHIRP
Confidential Human Factors Incident Reporting Programme (Chirp),
Confidential: 1. told in confidence; imparted in secret 2. of or showing trust in another; confiding 3. entrusted with private or seceret matters
Two major breeches of the CHIRP reporting system in as many weeks. If this keeps up we will manage to set the international flight safety programmes back ten years...
Confidential: 1. told in confidence; imparted in secret 2. of or showing trust in another; confiding 3. entrusted with private or seceret matters
Two major breeches of the CHIRP reporting system in as many weeks. If this keeps up we will manage to set the international flight safety programmes back ten years...
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Orca Strait...
The system is confindential as for as the reporters identity is concerned... but since the CHIRP magazine is then published and sent to all (?) ATPL (?), CPL (?) pilots the chances of keeping anything out of the press are zero! I get one sent to me everytime...
Personally, having received the CHIRP magazine with this article in it some weeks ago, I am only surprised it has taken this long to get into the press (albeit the article has some extras, such as a guess as to which airline it refers to, and the aging aircraft issue)
NoD
The system is confindential as for as the reporters identity is concerned... but since the CHIRP magazine is then published and sent to all (?) ATPL (?), CPL (?) pilots the chances of keeping anything out of the press are zero! I get one sent to me everytime...
Personally, having received the CHIRP magazine with this article in it some weeks ago, I am only surprised it has taken this long to get into the press (albeit the article has some extras, such as a guess as to which airline it refers to, and the aging aircraft issue)
NoD
Whilst the report made might have been confidential, the matter was reported openly in the most recent CHIRP feedback circulated to professional licence holders. That is NOT confidential.
But someone in the media has decided to allege that the report refers to RyanAir - which is quite probably libellous. Quite why this allegation should have been made, I do not know - there was nothing in the CHIRP feedback which made any reference to a specific operator or aerodrome.
But someone in the media has decided to allege that the report refers to RyanAir - which is quite probably libellous. Quite why this allegation should have been made, I do not know - there was nothing in the CHIRP feedback which made any reference to a specific operator or aerodrome.
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Sorry, I've lost the plot on this one. Allegedly, pilots of LCAs are disregarding speed limits set by ATC (who of course work purely by intuition and telepathy - these stories of radars maintaining a vigilant watch are pure fairy stories, especially at Swanwick 
) and because they don't maintain separation then they end up having to execute a go-around ... which of course takes considerably longer than the 15 seconds or so they would have saved by not maintaining separation!
What a load of complete and utter b0ll0x! If you upset ATC by disregarding them or ignoring their instructions, you can expect to find yourserf in the Biggin or Ockham hold for a very, very long time - and if you do it on approach you can expect tea and biccies with the CP pronto.
Sure, the LCAs have a habit of high speed taxis, but I have to admit that from what I have seen recently Michael Schumacher seems to have left his day job with Ryanair.
The CAA is responsible for the safety of ALL aircraft in UK airspace. Obviously, this journo has never heard of ramp checks!
As for Stelios' attack on the age of the aircraft operated by Ryanair, he should know better: mechanical and structural reliability is dependent on proper maintenance and no one has ever accused MO'L of skimping on that. In any case, the last crash in the UK of a B737 was that of a brand new aircraft at Kegworth, so give me older, more reliable technology rather than this computer driven stuff! And don't get me started on the B737's rudder actuators either...
) and because they don't maintain separation then they end up having to execute a go-around ... which of course takes considerably longer than the 15 seconds or so they would have saved by not maintaining separation!What a load of complete and utter b0ll0x! If you upset ATC by disregarding them or ignoring their instructions, you can expect to find yourserf in the Biggin or Ockham hold for a very, very long time - and if you do it on approach you can expect tea and biccies with the CP pronto.
Sure, the LCAs have a habit of high speed taxis, but I have to admit that from what I have seen recently Michael Schumacher seems to have left his day job with Ryanair.
The CAA is responsible for the safety of ALL aircraft in UK airspace. Obviously, this journo has never heard of ramp checks!
As for Stelios' attack on the age of the aircraft operated by Ryanair, he should know better: mechanical and structural reliability is dependent on proper maintenance and no one has ever accused MO'L of skimping on that. In any case, the last crash in the UK of a B737 was that of a brand new aircraft at Kegworth, so give me older, more reliable technology rather than this computer driven stuff! And don't get me started on the B737's rudder actuators either...
The Chirp report is public information. The transport editors of newspapers are probably not on the mailing list and so they had to wait until someone forward the report directly to them.
The concern about pilots being under pressure, from management, over time keeping is valid and relevant to the culture in some UK airlines.
It is the responsibility of all airline Captains to despatch the flight when it is fully safe to do so and not just to achieve an on time target. It is the duty of the airline management to support the Captain.
The problem is . . . Airline management will not always support the pilot in this matter.
What matters is the perceived pressure on the pilot. Bear in mind that the Captain has to be totally objective about safety at all times.
It is a very good thing that this story has broken. The ATC controller who submitted the report is a wise man and really is speaking for pilots who cannot speak publicly because:
A. The airline would sack them.
B. Other UK airlines would not employ them.
I wonder if the CAA will comment publicly?
The concern about pilots being under pressure, from management, over time keeping is valid and relevant to the culture in some UK airlines.
It is the responsibility of all airline Captains to despatch the flight when it is fully safe to do so and not just to achieve an on time target. It is the duty of the airline management to support the Captain.
The problem is . . . Airline management will not always support the pilot in this matter.
What matters is the perceived pressure on the pilot. Bear in mind that the Captain has to be totally objective about safety at all times.
It is a very good thing that this story has broken. The ATC controller who submitted the report is a wise man and really is speaking for pilots who cannot speak publicly because:
A. The airline would sack them.
B. Other UK airlines would not employ them.
I wonder if the CAA will comment publicly?
'just another atco'
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Wig Wag has hit the nail on the head. The original report to CHIRP appeared to be attacking the culture of the low cost operation rather than a specific operator. Certainly, one the incidents quoted did not involve RYR and I think it is unfortunate that a newspaper naming a specific operator may detract from a very valuable debate.
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What exactly is the CHIRP procedure? If only one controller reports a problem, does that make it worthy of a follow-up? Supposing said controller has a grudge. Or does system prevent "repeat" reporting so that if one report is made, any other similar ones are "tagged" onto this, preventing several different reports for same problem? This could represent the views of several controllers, although apparently looking like only one. Hope that makes sense!
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From this week's Flight International on the subject of the French 35 hour working week and its implications on a new Ryanair base in France:
with O'Leary saying: "We'll break the laws in France if that's what needs to be done."
Well what can you say to that? I think that just about sums up MOL's attitude: he'll stop at nothing to get what he wants. How can you possibly trust Ryanair now?
If they're openly prepared to break the law in this case where does it stop? Who knows what laws and regulations they're breaking?
with O'Leary saying: "We'll break the laws in France if that's what needs to be done."
Well what can you say to that? I think that just about sums up MOL's attitude: he'll stop at nothing to get what he wants. How can you possibly trust Ryanair now?
If they're openly prepared to break the law in this case where does it stop? Who knows what laws and regulations they're breaking?
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What worries me is that now that the journos have got hold of CHIRP, the website and the whole (admirable) project risks being devalued and abused and its confidentiality undermined.
WxJx
WxJx
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Any pilot who has disobeyed ATC instructions should be sanctioned. Not only the professional pilots from the low cost or 'high' cost airlines, but any pilot. I doubt that any airline pilot or any other type of comercial or private pilot, would out righly go against instructions given by ATC, tower or ground control. This report must be looked into by BALPA and the other unions, so as to clarify and set the records straight!
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"Some pilots are also using their radios to complain that they are not being given priority. One crew complained that another aircraft had been allowed to land first because they were not UK nationals. "
In my experience the UK is the only place in Europe where aircraft departing or even landing are handled on a 'first come first served' basis (disregarding tight slots). Ive lost count of the number of times I've experienced such as; been told to give way to the Air France who still had about half a mile to taxi at CDG been told to slow to Vapp when still at 15 miles in Ireland because there was a Ryanair taxiing out to the holding point.
In my experience the UK is the only place in Europe where aircraft departing or even landing are handled on a 'first come first served' basis (disregarding tight slots). Ive lost count of the number of times I've experienced such as; been told to give way to the Air France who still had about half a mile to taxi at CDG been told to slow to Vapp when still at 15 miles in Ireland because there was a Ryanair taxiing out to the holding point.
Last edited by GearUp CheerUp; 18th Jun 2002 at 10:01.
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WxJX
I don't think this is the first time the journos have used CHIRP - I remember last year there was a big story on the telly and in the papers re flight planned fuel all based on an article in CHIRP.
CHIRP is an anonymous system. However in this case the editor(s) of Feedback thought it important and relevant to include the phrase "low cost airline operators" in the published report. In addition their summary/comment stated:
Most, if not all, major UK airports hold regular liaison meetings at which problems ... can be discussed between Air Traffic Services and airline representatives. However, the effectiveness of these depends on regular participation by local operators.
They also forwarded a copy of the report to the CAA Safety Regulation Group.
Clearly the editor(s) of Feedback feel this case warrants further attention and that normal channels of communication aren't as effective as they should be. Their intention is to raise awareness at an early stage to prevent this happenning. The fact that it has made headline news only goes to show that many people are sceptical of the LCAs and their committment to Safety vs Profit.
With MOL seemingly happy to break the law when it suits him (see my post above) who's to say that the LCAs don't deserve a bit more scrutiny?
I don't think this is the first time the journos have used CHIRP - I remember last year there was a big story on the telly and in the papers re flight planned fuel all based on an article in CHIRP.
CHIRP is an anonymous system. However in this case the editor(s) of Feedback thought it important and relevant to include the phrase "low cost airline operators" in the published report. In addition their summary/comment stated:
Most, if not all, major UK airports hold regular liaison meetings at which problems ... can be discussed between Air Traffic Services and airline representatives. However, the effectiveness of these depends on regular participation by local operators.
They also forwarded a copy of the report to the CAA Safety Regulation Group.
Clearly the editor(s) of Feedback feel this case warrants further attention and that normal channels of communication aren't as effective as they should be. Their intention is to raise awareness at an early stage to prevent this happenning. The fact that it has made headline news only goes to show that many people are sceptical of the LCAs and their committment to Safety vs Profit.
With MOL seemingly happy to break the law when it suits him (see my post above) who's to say that the LCAs don't deserve a bit more scrutiny?