Tiger A320 - another "lost" cowling?
From memory Tiger Airways Phillipines used that as the callsign, they merged with Cebu and no longer exist. Tiger in Singapore did use STRIPE until around 06'
If you hear a SMART CAT, Tiger Airways Taiwan!
If you hear a SMART CAT, Tiger Airways Taiwan!
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For f...s sake !!!!!!!!
How difficult is it to crouch down and check these latches?
You don't need to get a wet knee, only a wet hand:-
Stand at the side of the engine just aft of the intake, facing to the rear of the aircraft. Crouch down like a cricket wicket keeper. Place one hand on the join between the front of the cowling and the engine anti-ice ring housing, (which will give you a tactile indication as to whether the cowling is correctly flush). Place your other hand on the ground and lean downwards until your head is low enough to look underneath at the latches. You should not be able to see anything hanging lower than the cowling line, (apart from the drain mast). If you do, call the engineers.
At the very worst, you might get a wet hand, but how bad is that compared to the idiocy of taking off with the cowlings unlatched ????????????????
Come on people, we are pilots, and we should properly check our aircraft before flying them. It is no good trying to blame engineers etc, the pilots accept the aircraft to fly, the pilots should perform a proper walk around. No excuses. End of.
How difficult is it to crouch down and check these latches?
You don't need to get a wet knee, only a wet hand:-
Stand at the side of the engine just aft of the intake, facing to the rear of the aircraft. Crouch down like a cricket wicket keeper. Place one hand on the join between the front of the cowling and the engine anti-ice ring housing, (which will give you a tactile indication as to whether the cowling is correctly flush). Place your other hand on the ground and lean downwards until your head is low enough to look underneath at the latches. You should not be able to see anything hanging lower than the cowling line, (apart from the drain mast). If you do, call the engineers.
At the very worst, you might get a wet hand, but how bad is that compared to the idiocy of taking off with the cowlings unlatched ????????????????
Come on people, we are pilots, and we should properly check our aircraft before flying them. It is no good trying to blame engineers etc, the pilots accept the aircraft to fly, the pilots should perform a proper walk around. No excuses. End of.
With short turn round times, the flight crew could have completed the walk around checks and then proceeded woth very busy preflight in the cabin and cockpit.
Maintenance could have done a lot of routine oil/fluid top up plus other checks which require opening the cowls after the pilots' walk around check.
The maintenace must check before pushback!
FELLOW PILOTS ARE A PILOT's worst enemy!!!!!!
We are arguing about whose job it is to check.
Shouldn't we be saying to Airbus that you know there is a problem - redesign the cowling before somebody gets hurt?
Shouldn't we be saying to Airbus that you know there is a problem - redesign the cowling before somebody gets hurt?
Yes, let's not speculate.
Well OK, then - you speculate, we won't.
With short turn round times, the flight crew could have completed the walk around checks and then proceeded woth very busy preflight in the cabin and cockpit.
Maintenance could have done a lot of routine oil/fluid top up plus other checks which require opening the cowls after the pilots' walk around check.
Maintenance could have done a lot of routine oil/fluid top up plus other checks which require opening the cowls after the pilots' walk around check.
Cause-effect-consequence
Clearly something is out of kilter here with way too many causes (humans)
Seems like the effort needs to go into the effect-consequence area
Has the 'fix" not been employed? or is it a case that it doesn't address the effect or consequence?
By consequence I mean the safety of flight by level
My gut feeling is that they need to significantly reduce the human involvement or at least the effect which is the release of the door in flight (make it pop open on start-up etc.)
Clearly something is out of kilter here with way too many causes (humans)
Seems like the effort needs to go into the effect-consequence area
Has the 'fix" not been employed? or is it a case that it doesn't address the effect or consequence?
By consequence I mean the safety of flight by level
My gut feeling is that they need to significantly reduce the human involvement or at least the effect which is the release of the door in flight (make it pop open on start-up etc.)
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Penitpete
Although I have made next to no posts prior to this incident I do happen to know a lot about this problem.
One thing is that a lot of people don't really know what they are on about when making posts.
It really is not rocket science, they are just engine cowles, even though they could be a better design, they just need to be checked for correct closure and latching.
People just need to do what they are paid for.
One thing is that a lot of people don't really know what they are on about when making posts.
It really is not rocket science, they are just engine cowles, even though they could be a better design, they just need to be checked for correct closure and latching.
People just need to do what they are paid for.
What makes you think that preventing a recurrence is going to be that easy?
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Penitpete
Well ok if you are suggesting that we need to make it so fool proof that a pilot or engineer dosn't need to do their job properly.
A/c fitted with V2500 engines could have a special certification block on the tech log sector page for the pilot or engineer to sign stating that the engine cowls have been inspected for correct closure and latching prior to despatch, just like the icing check.
A/c fitted with V2500 engines could have a special certification block on the tech log sector page for the pilot or engineer to sign stating that the engine cowls have been inspected for correct closure and latching prior to despatch, just like the icing check.
Only half a speed-brake
I feel you are both correct. The problem is not really with the latches, they do lock once closed. If left open, the fact is perfectly obvious provided you look at them. BTW, there never was need to get wet, that idea only came up in the post "BA situation" face-saving excercise.
YES, People just need to do what they are paid for. NO, preventing a reocurrence is not going to be that easy.
The only difference with CFMs is that when left unlocked it is hard not to notice.
YES, People just need to do what they are paid for. NO, preventing a reocurrence is not going to be that easy.
The only difference with CFMs is that when left unlocked it is hard not to notice.
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I don't know why Singapore ATC is always so pedantic in asking the exact reason for the return to WSSS. It's not the first time I've heard this level of interrogation by Singapore ATC for aircraft diverting to WSSS. Is it for security reasons? They don't appear to be welcoming to diverting aircraft.
As for Tiger's callsign, they changed to 'Go Cat' a few years ago because their previous callsign sounded too much like another carrier's. And now since Air Asia changed to 'Red Cap', they're back to the same problem.
As for Tiger's callsign, they changed to 'Go Cat' a few years ago because their previous callsign sounded too much like another carrier's. And now since Air Asia changed to 'Red Cap', they're back to the same problem.
What struck me when listening to the audio tape was how poorly the Singapore controllers behaved during this incident. I recall hearing at least twice, the controller reading back verbatim what the PNF had just said to him and then added "Confirm?". As for not understanding the word "cowling", I would have expected better English comprehension than that.
I got the feeling that the controllers were completely out of their depth, when handling a non-normal situation. As for asking how many VIPs on board, I expect that was a requirement of their SOP, but I would have been tempted to answer "183!"
It seems as if the Mayday declaration did not trigger the undivided attention of ATC - they still seemed to handle the flight as if it was a part of the normal flow.
The PNF could have perhaps influenced the situation by using the Mayday suffix, at least on initial contact on a new frequency.
Unless I missed it, ATC never did confirm that the fire trucks were standing by, even though the PNF specifically asked.
Finally, I have to say, I thought the PNF (local or European?) was amazingly patient with ATC throughout the whole incident.
PS I flew into Changi on Sunday on Tiger and I was tempted to ask the Captain, as we deplaned, if both cowlings were still attached, but I thought he might not appreciate my humour!
I got the feeling that the controllers were completely out of their depth, when handling a non-normal situation. As for asking how many VIPs on board, I expect that was a requirement of their SOP, but I would have been tempted to answer "183!"
It seems as if the Mayday declaration did not trigger the undivided attention of ATC - they still seemed to handle the flight as if it was a part of the normal flow.
The PNF could have perhaps influenced the situation by using the Mayday suffix, at least on initial contact on a new frequency.
Unless I missed it, ATC never did confirm that the fire trucks were standing by, even though the PNF specifically asked.
Finally, I have to say, I thought the PNF (local or European?) was amazingly patient with ATC throughout the whole incident.
PS I flew into Changi on Sunday on Tiger and I was tempted to ask the Captain, as we deplaned, if both cowlings were still attached, but I thought he might not appreciate my humour!
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CFM56 vs V2500
Something maybe deeper to ponder guys?
Part of the response in post 33 from DaveReidUK stated
Quote:
I'm not an engine man, over to the experts.
Part of the response in post 33 from DaveReidUK stated
Quote:
"Incidentally, there's an interesting statistic in the AAIB report on the Heathrow incident, namely that IAE-powered Airbuses are more likely to lose the doors from the left engine, whereas for CFM-powered variants it's the right engine. In both cases, the latches are on the inboard side of the relevant engine."
Referring to pics on the net shows that when standing facing the front of the engine the CFM fan rotates CW but the V2500 rotates CCW. I'm not an engine man, over to the experts.
YALC
YALC = Yet Another Lost Cowling
According to AVH, a Luxair DH8D-400 on LG4605 arrived at London City with a bit missing.
Time to reconsider the Ford Solution ?
DH8s seem to do this regularly, like A320s.
Is Inattentional Blindness part of the problem ?
Spot the Gorilla:
According to AVH, a Luxair DH8D-400 on LG4605 arrived at London City with a bit missing.
Time to reconsider the Ford Solution ?
DH8s seem to do this regularly, like A320s.
Is Inattentional Blindness part of the problem ?
Spot the Gorilla:
I suspect it's a consequence of where you have to stand/crouch/kneel (delete as appropriate) in relation to the engine/wing/fuselage in order to check the latches depending on whether they are on the outboard or inboard cowl.
But obviously I don't have any proof.
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Where I work the closing and latching of A320 cowlings are now a Critical Inspection task. Another pair of eyes may or may now help alleviate the problem - time will tell I guess
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I cannot believe that these brainwashed morons are in charge at Changi Airport. Double confirm? VIP? Spelling of cowling? Then again this is Singapore where people are taught not to think but obey.
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So why does it happen then? Well for the A320 my best guess is that these incidents are associated with the weekly oil level check of the IDG. "We'll top that up later so not point latching it."
On the CFM, oil/IDG oil checks can be done without opening the cowlings.
