Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Fire Fighter crash

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Fire Fighter crash

Old 20th Jun 2002, 06:16
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
That third crew member is called...the Flight Engineer.
411A is offline  
Old 20th Jun 2002, 06:31
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: surfing, watching for sharks
Posts: 4,034
Received 25 Likes on 18 Posts
411
I have more time on the crapper at Twenty nine palms than you have thinking about military training. The Marines (and other services) train in the conditions they expect to fight in. Despite your valued input, the Marines thought it would be best to train for mountainous combat in the mountains. Amphibious training is done on a beach, jungle in the jungle, desert in the desert. See a pattern?
Trying to limit military training as you suggest is what gets people killed
West Coast is online now  
Old 20th Jun 2002, 06:56
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Glad you had time in Twentynine Palms for extra-curricular activities West Coast, now try to stick to the thread...just a little bit.
411A is offline  
Old 20th Jun 2002, 08:22
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Beyond the black stump!
Posts: 1,417
Received 14 Likes on 7 Posts
Post

This very interesting link was posted on the airtanker bulletin board Independent Investigation Link.

Makes very interesting reading with regard to the accident discussed here!

I have known the author of this report for the last 10 years. He is a highly experienced and competent investigator (former NTSB) and high time (C-130 amongst others) pilot. This is an entirely credible report.
Cyclic Hotline is offline  
Old 20th Jun 2002, 10:46
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 93
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
411a, you seem to have started the wandering from the thread by mentioning the Marines, I thought the thread was about a C-130 crash. You also seem to very opinionated and closed minded about most of the 'stuff' that has been said about this horrific crash.
The point here is that a C-130 crashed for what is as yet an unknown cause, we can all speculate, as we do, but let's try to keep to the point and quit complaining about other less important stuff.
Oh yes, by the way, you are probably nice and cozey in your Arizona house because of the unselfish dedication to duty of those Marines and other members of the military that are guarding your sorry little a--.
Latte tester is offline  
Old 20th Jun 2002, 14:03
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Eagan, MN
Posts: 339
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
2 items:
First: in 1968 I was stationed in Mactan, PI, which had 2 squadrons of C-130's; this was during the seige at Khe San. It quickly became plain it was dangerous to re-supply Khe San by stopping & off-loading, so at Mactan they developed this system whereby they would come above the area about 5 feet off the ground, & drop the stuff out the back, & accelerate out, never touching down. This had to have bent the airframes quite a bit. I wonder if that airframe in Yosemite had been put through this kind of activity over the years.

Second: I believe the reason such big conflagrations occur is that the natural effect of small fires, burning off underbrush & forest floor, old pine needles, cones, leaves, etc , is stopped by modern firefighting. The underbrush & forest floor is never cleared, and becomes, over time, like a huge time-bomb. Had the famous woman in Colorado not started the fire, something (lightning, etc) or someone would have (accidently or not). One must admire the fire-fighters, but they actually magnify the problem.
Semaphore Sam is offline  
Old 20th Jun 2002, 16:21
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Semaphore Sam,

Would expect that the type of maneuver that you describe would indeed take its toll over time. Expect that no other type used in aerial fire-fighting today was abused in this manner. Let's hope that more P3's are available in the future as this type was beefed up considerably after L188's experienced wing separation many years ago. Our DirMaintenance is an old Electra hand from way back and he mentions that the Electra is built like the perverbial brick ....house. I flew Electras for a very brief time and would have to say that it had...instant power, right now.

And your comments about the Forest Service were right on target.
411A is offline  
Old 20th Jun 2002, 17:17
  #48 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: USA
Posts: 286
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
411A

One of your few posts that I find something in common with. I flew out of IDL, oops, JFK, and use to commute from DCA to the NYC area on the EA or AA shuttle or NA. The Electras, before they
were slowed down, use to make as good a time as the DC-9 or 72s. I never flew them, but I always like the airplane, particularly after they determined the problem. Can see how it would
make for a good tanker.
wes_wall is offline  
Old 20th Jun 2002, 19:58
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 324
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
For Those who didn't bother following Cyclic Hotline's link

The PearBlossom Crash
Investigation of the 13 Aug 94 Loss of Lockheed C130A Firefighting Tanker ... at http://www.iprr.org/COMPS/T82story.htm
Douglas R. Herlihy, Air Safety Investigator

This Report by an independent ISASI investigator convincingly repudiates the NTSB Report's finding of wiring igniting fuel leaks in the dry bay and attributes the accident to straight overstress (crew + gust-factor) for the weight that they were at. I also believe that that is what we saw in the recent accident. If (in the Pearblossom crash) they were rolling at the time, then you also need to recognise that the ultimate load factor is only two-thirds of the symmetrical limit (3g for a new aircraft). That then puts you at the aircraft limit of only two +g for a fully deflected aileron (and about 2.5g for a half-deflected control input). Based upon 150% ULF, a sharp vertical gust of only 5kts (=500fpm) would break the structure if entered at that rolling g limit.

Pulling whilst rolling can also induce cumulative damage and over a period the residual strength inherent in the structure will be undetectably eroded towards something that will be quite unacceptable for the manoeuvring demanded by the role.

Aerobatic Training aircraft usually carry counting accelerometers (fatigue meters) so that a fatigue index can be calculated and a fatigue life arrived at for the airplane (at the then known rate of fatigue accumulation within its role). Fire Service bailed aircraft apparently do not observe that precaution - and so they find out the hard way.

The Pearblossom breakup sequence and explanations for the witness statements and debris distribution and condition are also satisfactorily explained in that ISASI Investigator's Report. It convincingly debunks the NTSB finding.

Obviously Fire Service Aircraft are accumulating fatigue-cracking in the centre section at a rapid rate because of the nature of their heavy manoeuvring operation amongst strong (fire-initiated) thermal turbulence - and the margin for error is now totally whittled away. I'd be surprised if the C130's return to the role.
UNCTUOUS is offline  
Old 21st Jun 2002, 05:26
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Nirvana South
Posts: 734
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Transport Canada has special integrating g-meter/recorders on all their Flight Inspection aircraft that do a similar amount of low altitude manouevers. From memory the system will allocate up to the equivalent of 5 or more normal 1-g flight hours for some evolutions.

The USAF C-140s used by the Checker Squadron out of Scott AFB were all grounded by stress fatigue in the wing spars. Apparentlythey found even if you spend a lot of money on refurbishment the corrosion just comes back in a few 100 hours

There was a quote by a fire marshal that these aircraft had been doing this for twenty years - just think of the equivalent normal airframe life.
ICT_SLB is offline  
Old 21st Jun 2002, 08:43
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Down south, USA.
Posts: 1,594
Received 9 Likes on 1 Post
Latte Tester: It was my fault for wandering off the topic (longer) on a previous page.

Whether the accident aircraft was Coast Guard (faded orange stripes?) or not, could it have suffered from many years of corrosion as a previous remark suggested? If this was combined with either Air Force (AFRES/ANG) assault landings with almost no flare, maybe those low-level LAPES airdrops almost on the ground at Khe-Sanh and/or years of low level turbulence from other fires/wind gusts, then was this crash sort of expected by lots of people in aero engineering/maintenance?

Would/does the apparent much higher wing loading on the Electra/P-3 (like a giant Metroliner) prevent it from having the best maneuverability for fire-fighting in small valleys?
Ignition Override is offline  
Old 21st Jun 2002, 09:31
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 324
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Alternative Fire-Fighters

The 4500 hp Allisons washing that rigid P3 wing gives you instant get up and go (as long as you're not operating to the overweight limit of 145,000lbs). Drop the 10 degrees of maneuver flap (that's good up to 275kts) and you have lots of maneuver abilities. I used to aerobat them (stripped down) at service airshows, including a 120kt departure climbout at light-weight max power/appch flap. That was about a 65 degree climb angle. FE's didn't like that one, or going inverted at the top of wing-overs...

The desert parking lots are full of old P3B's (which have more gutz than the A models) - but I'm not sure how much retardant they'll take in comparison with the Herk. Weightwise about the same, but depends how they plumb it in. I doubt you'd pull the wings off the P-3 (VNe of 405kts and flies v smoothly at that speed).
UNCTUOUS is offline  
Old 21st Jun 2002, 10:31
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 1,914
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
My impression from the video footage was that there was a very pronouncced ridge line just behind where the failure occured, and the Herc was below the ridge level. Did it swoop down after crossing the ridge and overstress on pull up? The way the wings separated almost simultaneously seem to indicate a marked sudden overstress.

My greatest respect to 3 brave fliers and their families who must always live with the risks their men take in their jobs. A sad event that the news services appeared to over indulge in.
Notso Fantastic is offline  
Old 21st Jun 2002, 11:57
  #54 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Where the streets have no name...
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I wonder what the explanation is. It seems pretty freaky that both wings should fall off at the same time. Are they connected by a spar through the fuselage, which could have failed?
Wobbles is offline  
Old 21st Jun 2002, 13:24
  #55 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: over here
Posts: 472
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Nope... the C-130 wing is a three-piece affair; center wing takes the two inboard engines, and just outboard the outer wings connect via bolts all the way around a set of beefy fittings.

There are spar caps all along top and bottom, and the wing itself has a rigid box all through, with struts inside that brace it. Hefty planks top and bottom make the outer skins.

It's certainly very similar to the 1994 accident.
Nopax,thanx is offline  
Old 21st Jun 2002, 13:52
  #56 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 324
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
An Opinion From a Professional C-130 Refurbisher

This one is a structural failure and occurred right where Snow (owner and operator of C-130A S/N 3035 produced in 1955) found cracks in the Southern Air Transport L-100 birds in Columbus Ohio. We've had a chance to see the entire tape and it is apparent that the pilot over G'd the aircraft in the turn prior to the drop then the sudden release of all that weight and a strong wind thermal right after drop folded the already damaged wings. Snow is trying to get through to the inspector from the NTSB in charge of the case in Calif. now to suggest exactly where they should go to look for the breaks in the lower spar caps on the crashed aircraft and other C-130 tankers.

The fire everyone saw is the fuel and hydraulic lines with the wiring tearing lose with the fuel igniting either from the wiring or the hot exhaust. It would be damned near impossible for both wings to leave at the same time from just fatigue, corrosion or two simultaneous explosions. The odds of any of those happening to both wings at exactly the same time is very small in our opinion
UNCTUOUS is offline  
Old 21st Jun 2002, 14:21
  #57 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
UNCTUOUS

The P3's that I have had a look at have had a capacity of 3,500 gallons of retardant and had the ability of dispersal in several different amounts, enabling multiple drops.
Have to agree with your comments regarding performance. Altho the Allison's on the L188 are derated from the military models, the performance of the aeroplane is superb.
411A is offline  
Old 21st Jun 2002, 14:23
  #58 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2,546
Received 23 Likes on 12 Posts
History behind Transport Canada' G-meters

A Transport Canada King Air used for flight inspection lost a wing. The investigation determined that the structural fatigue design of the King Air was predicated on spending most of its life in high altitude cruise. Bumping around at low level wore out the structure faster than the design life worked out for high altitude operations. Other turboprops are likely designed around the same fatigue parameters.

The older big pistons were overdesigned, but by the time the turboprops came in, the structural fatigue formulae were more precise and the structures were designed more precisely to the expected loads.

Newer is not necessarily stronger, or as this case shows, more durable.

So how many firefighting operators are capable of performing a fatigue analysis of the structural design of a type not yet used for firefighting and setting up an inspection program that will catch defects before something big falls off?
RatherBeFlying is offline  
Old 21st Jun 2002, 14:40
  #59 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: over here
Posts: 472
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I'm not that familiar with FAA regs, but presumably these tankers are in a Category like the UK's old 'Aerial Work' which covered aircraft that did not carry fare paying pax, so were not Transport per se.

So the inspections would be different from those required on an aircraft with a 'full' certificate?
Nopax,thanx is offline  
Old 21st Jun 2002, 19:05
  #60 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: preston
Posts: 433
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
c130s

i was shocked at seeing the c130 crash. was the aircraft an ex military aircraft? the uk caa will not allow c130s on to the british civil register due to the aircraft not having a normal wing spar.
canberra is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.