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john frohnsdorff elected BALPA General Secretary

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john frohnsdorff elected BALPA General Secretary

Old 27th Jun 2002, 00:03
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I support airrage.

The way to win the upcoming pay and benefits demands is simple

1) In The Log print advice on income protection strategies.

2) In The Log print suggested non-industrial actions which flightcrew might implement immediately without risk.

3) Ballot on industrial action. +ive ballot.

4) Take limited industrial action on a particular day/issue/base/fleet.

5) Resolve having been demonstrated and a media pre-show achieved - ballot on a a full blown strike. +ive ballot.

6) Achieve all moderate aims of T&C+P demands.

7) Watch entire UK aviation industry follow suit with egg all over their face with regard to Sept 11th cuts.

Peter.
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Old 27th Jun 2002, 00:33
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should BA only hire in Captains already qualified and save the time on staff training we put into making first officers into commanders?

Wasn't this staff training cancelled to save money? Do we send Rod on a 'personal development' course? Personal development is for the underlings to improve themselves within the company, not for the top nobs to improve their future employment prospects.


You will probably find that there is lots of talk of militancy, but the reality is most of us have mortgages to pay etc and the cost of a strike is not to be undertaken lightly.

Some of us are faced with a stark choice: accept a month without paying the mortgage now, or face a career struggling to pay it. I'll happily forego a few days wages in order to avoid lying awake at night for the next few years worrying about the inevitable rise in interest rates. Or perhaps you haven't noticed the surge in house prices in the south east lately?

Who do you listen to, the guy who turns up once, knows nothing about how things work and makes an accidental pratt of themselves , or someone you have had a good working relationship with and who appears to know what they are talking about because you have seen them in action over a period?

For 'good' read 'cosy'. If the working relationship was so good then why does deep mistrust of CD exist? Do you genuinely believe that CD was bigger than BALPA, that had he been indisposed for whatever reason we couldn't get by with a deputy?

The ADC result reflected what people working with CD saw in him.

I'm sure it did, but the election result reflects what the electorate saw in CD. Frankly we're not that interested in behind-the-scenes manouvering, we're interested in what's in our pay packet, our job security and how much time off we have. CDs had ten years of mingling at the House of Lords, dining with MDs and helping out the Competition Commission, yet we're still earning less, working harder and watching flagged out aircraft in our airspace while UK flight crew are on the dole. Ten years of practicing without delivering is too long. I don't feel inclined to gamble on another five years of CD making it better. The time has come when most of our members want action, not promises. CD was no longer the man for the job.

Last edited by Hand Solo; 27th Jun 2002 at 00:36.
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Old 27th Jun 2002, 15:28
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I was surprised to see the BALPA notice put out by JF. I would have thought that he is right out of line to talk about appointing a new GS who will "closely follow the mandate given to me". From 1st July he will be GS and answerable to the NEC. If he then resigns and there is an election for a new GS he will not be in a position to appoint a new GS let alone propose one.
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Old 27th Jun 2002, 16:04
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JF has never given me the impression that he was 'standing'. He is a Trojan horse wishing to open the way for democracy in BALPA. Forgive him for the grammatical errors, Sky 9 and start to practice drawing your BIG, indellible X's for the proper democratic election of a Gen Sec late summer.

It's not my idea, but someone mentioned a while back the possibility of GS salary being linked to the members salary, so Performance Related Pay could rid the very aspects that got CD rejected? Perhaps JF could bring about that change whilst he sits in the post?
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Old 27th Jun 2002, 16:13
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Sky9 is absolutely correct. BALPA may be blindly accelerating into deep and uncharted waters led by a temporary GS who has assumed his powers to be greater than they really are.
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Old 27th Jun 2002, 17:26
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JF doesn't even assume his role until 2July, give the guy a break, you gave CD 10years worth.
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Old 27th Jun 2002, 18:21
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Wow! Airrage... I'm impressed. You can do it if you really want to (make a short post, I mean).

Martin A,

I really think you're wasting your time continuing to defend an out of date position. The deep distrust amongst the membership was caused mainly by a lack of openness from BALPA about the fact that CD was due for re-election in the first place.

JF and others were simply not happy to "rubber stamp" another five years without the membership being consulted on the issue. Ultimately, democracy has prevailed.

The rule book should specify that an election be held EVERY FIVE YEARS without fail, even if the only opposing candidate is a stalking horse standing merely for the sake of democracy (a bit like JF just did). At least the membership would ALWAYS be given the opportunity to vote against the incumbent, even if no suitable candidate were standing against him. A message from the membership can therefore be sent, even if change does not prevail.

Come to think of it... Many executive positions are granted on short term contracts these days, One and two year contracts of employment are not uncommon. Maybe such a contract for the new GS would concentrate his/her mind on their performance?

I have taken Airrage's advice... My home improvement loan forms are winging their way to me from the Nationwide as I type!
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Old 29th Jun 2002, 11:51
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It's not for nothing that for years I thought BALPA stood for "British Airways Line Pilots Association"... and whatever so called evidence I hear to the contrary my experiences bear this out.
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Old 29th Jun 2002, 15:24
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Just a few words before Saturday siesta (6 am Sim !).
It is not the person ( CD) I am defending, he is big enough and old enough to do that himself. Anyway, he is gone and you cannot go back.
What I do defend, is good governance and process. A democratic organisation, with democracy, freely elected representatives, responsible to their electorate, but just like MPs, they are free to discharge that responsibility without threat. Poor performance is rewarded at the ballot box ! Decisions to be based on accurate information, backed with facts and evidence rather than tabloid type hype and which must comply with the Law. People who will speak up and be identified, taking responsibility for their decisions, rather than those who hide behind pseudonyms etc, throwing questionable facts and not taking responsibility, an easy task for a wrecker with today’s easy communications one might say. Perhaps some are that, who knows, as they say the contributors to this may not be who they appear to be !
It is a very sad state of affairs, for whatever reason , when the people you have elected as your CC reps etc, had one view of an individual that they work with and the constituency , i.e. members who had probably no direct contact, had another. Given that there seems to be some confusion in the memberships as to just what each part of the organisation does and who and what it is responsible for, then that should be where it starts. It already exist, but it seems many don’t bother to read it. Perhaps the odd page three girl, some pages out of FHM and for older members, instructions of how to employ a plumber in France, would spice it up a bit!
Any real ideas?

As to the previous incumbents failings. A lot seems to have been said, but just so readers are clear as to what sort of failings a Gen Sec might make and why a Gen Sec, who after all only provides advice, might have concluded that a strike might be a bad idea in some cases, please give us some hard fact examples of what it was that was not done and what should have been done. As an example, why not tell us ALL about the 777 bunks, after all it seems so important to some, in fact enough to want to get a lot of people on strike, so let us have it, warts and all, plus the corresponding BACC minutes, which should explain the story. It was after all being quoted as a major reason for the previous Gen Secs removal, because of his flawed judgement in not calling for a strike, or rather it seems recommending a strike to the BACC, where responsibility for that decision lie. It seems like some think the Gen Sec"orders" the members out on strike like Red Robbo of Longbridge , not sure we are all prepared to someone’s “ego fodder”!
I am concerned about how the association deals with its current situation. We have lost a member of the team. The remaining members will have an increase in workload, as the previous member DID spend time dealing with issues. Ask any of the CCs about how much support they got by whoever it was, add it up and divide by persons available then and now. Any complaining about 25 % more work this year than last for no extra pay, may like to think about the remaining workload shunted on to others at New Road with the change of people. This is because of the candidate Gen Sec, who will be unable to deal with it, unless he resigns his current full time work and moves back to the UK, so he can discharge the responsibilities he sought and obtained with the vote he received!
By the way how come someone has got time to do 25% more work this year ? You must have been flying less than 680 hours a year to do that, or it’s illegal (900 hrs per anum. max ).Seems a cushy number to me when some are busting 900 hrs long haul BA and even short haul gets me up to 75 hours per month block time!

As to style of operation of the Association, well that is an issue that we need to address. Do you work together, or do you have guerrilla warfare ? The choice is yours, just remember though, it is not a war we (pilots) can win unless, we own the companies we work for. Probably a good idea, but then we become the bosses which , as some find out, is not quite the same as being a worker. Thus, there will always be an us and them. So the issue is how to deal with it, bearing in mind the UK law which basically requires the directors to maximise the shareholders return and has absolutely NO DUTY to increase the employees pay, no matter how worthy they may be. They only pay us anything, or more because if they did not, we would go elsewhere (if we could )

So, you can either continue at war, which as any historian tells you, costs a fortune and destroys a lot, including what was not intended to be, or, you can realise that you both have mutual objective, like getting paid as much as you can for whatever service you offer and trying to do that to mutual advantage. By the way, comment was made about geese and golden eggs somewhere. As a former chicken keeper, a more productive line would be, to get as good an output of eggs for as long as possible, because if you threaten or frighten a chicken, sure it drops the eggs(or other stuff !!!) when you do it, but then the little b***** doesn’t lay anymore for a while, while it recovers from the shock! This can leave you feeling good about today’s two eggs instead of the former one per day, but is no consolation when you have to wait a week for the next one and you kill the odd one learning how much pressure you can apply to their neck and not kill them!( reminds me of an MP somehow!)
You have to have a working relationship, the concept of open warfare that is espoused by some is not sustainable on either side, after all, how big is British Leyland now ? Don’t think it could not happen to any airline in the EU, as now it is EU, there are definitely more options available to any of the big fish, including any weak and wounded other big, or bigger ones!
Flagging out by the way, is as I said, continually raised by BALPA, but if it has an EU or certain other registrations (Iceland is one I believe) it is allowed. It is a Government not CAA issue and we constantly attack it, but are any of you also writing to your MP? It is the only way you will get anything done as volume of protest counts. By the way, night flights continue at EMA due BALPA input, plus or minus for that is personal, depends if you want to work for DHL or live on the approach!!
As to the simplistic remarks about mixing it with the Lords etc. Well I am certainly no royalist or the like. However, the laws of the land are made in Westminster. If you want to get your word in, it has to be done in those circles, it does not, I am afraid happen here, or in bars down route, though it might be easier for us to attend if it were, but it isn’t.
What now. Well, unlike the picture painted by some of thousands of potential Gen Secs, I suspect far fewer real ones exist. Even if a team manage to get one, two or more candidates, an election will be needed and then notice worked, so if we see another Gen Sec in under say 5 or 6 months we will be lucky. Before we start looking, we do need to decide what their role is and make it clear to all members what it is, so that no doubt exist in anyone’s mind just as to where responsibilities lie for any action or event.
TTFN
Martin Alder
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Old 29th Jun 2002, 17:40
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Martin A,

Lord you go on! It's over already; Wakey Wakey!

Let’s look to the future now and make it better!

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Old 29th Jun 2002, 18:31
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Martin with stated views like that you're days as a BA BALPA rep are surely numbered, regardless of the good work you do at the Technical committees. Its attitudes like that which got Chris Darke trounced in the election. I'll say this once and I'll say it clearly - YOU ARE GROSSLY OUT OF STEP WITH YOUR BA MEMBERS ASPIRATIONS. We've tried the 'lets work together'/guiding principles approach, and the majority of the membership recognise that it has been more hinderance than help. We want a new approach to dealing with the company, and we expect our reps to recognise and act upon that desire instead of faintly patronising us with statements that they know best and we should stop meddling. Don't liken us to Leyland, they were inefficient, unproductive, expensive, delivered a gash product and walked out on strike at the drop of a hat. Thats why they went bust. We are a very different group.

To return to the 'Golden Goose' analogy, you're quite right to suggest its better to have a daily egg than to choke its neck and get two today and none for a week. However it seems to have escaped your attention that the BA goose has stubbornly refused to lay an egg for us for several years, and moreover when our backs have been turned its been nicking the eggs we've got and been sucking them right back up its own a rse!
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Old 29th Jun 2002, 18:43
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Martin, theres nothing new in your post from what has not already been flogged to death, so there is little I can comment on. I also know very little about chickens and how they lay eggs.

You say
"What I do defend, is good governance and process. A democratic organisation, with democracy, freely elected representatives, responsible to their electorate, but just like MPs, they are free to discharge that responsibility without threat. Poor performance is rewarded at the ballot box !"
- So you must be happy then that we all got the opportunity to participate in the GS Elections and did reward poor performance at the ballot box. Where were these Democratic principals when BALPA tried to quietly re-instate CD without an election process. Or when MG decided to try and alter a fair electon process. Seems like not everyone in BALPA shares your good governance morales, I bet they do now. I don't recall hearing anyone being threatened.

You also say;
"It is a very sad state of affairs, for whatever reason , when the people you have elected as your CC reps etc, had one view of an individual that they work with and the constituency , i.e. members who had probably no direct contact, had another".
AGREED ! Perhaps more communication with the constituency will bring reps into line with the thinking of those they represent and vice versa.

You do continue to go on about JF commuting from France ignoring completely his manifesto. Give him a bit of time please. Don't say what a crap GS he will appoint, and how long it will take before he has even officially taken office. At least he has reinvigorated the democratic principles in BALPA so much that it is even included in your posts now. I don't think this would have occurred a couple months ago.

As for New Road and 25 % more work this year than last for no extra pay.............Sounds like the kind of pay raises pilots have had to endure over the last few years. I hope they get the help they need to do an effective job soon.

I've never harped on about the 777 bunk issue and I discussed why it was even mentioned in my last post. I can assure you it was not a major factor in my voting for JF.

As for people not being who they appear to be, I can't speak about others but I can assure the conspiracy theorists here that I personally have never held or ran for any BALPA office. I have also never met or talked with JF or his team. All this can be verified by those on either the BA-Pprune section or the new BACouncil BALPA Forum where my identity has already been revealed. I am merely a BALPA member and line pilot who enjoys the new medium created by the Internet to express ones views. Great isn't it !

Last edited by airrage; 29th Jun 2002 at 18:50.
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Old 29th Jun 2002, 19:00
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Martin, I don't recall you dispondantly saying you are considering leaving BALPA committee. That is surely not want anyone wants to lose it's many fine elected reps. A shake up of the head office shouldn't be confused as animosity directed at the reps.

From my previous post;
"I would just like to say that I have noticed the defensive reaction shown by reps(NEC or otherwise) to the recent upsurge in activisim. I think we as members are perhaps just as guilty in not communicating upwards to reps as we accuse them for not communicating with us. I know being a rep must be a thankless job and you don't get many stray e-mails just to say, hey wanted to say thanks and keep up the great work. How many trips downroute do you get not discussing BALPA issues? Doesn't mean the majority of us don't realise or appreciate the work done. It's a bit like accepting a flying managers job except you get the same amount of crap yet none of the perks. "

Don't force me into starting a, "Please Don't Leave Martin A POLL." just to show how much support you would receive. No airrage POLL jokes anymore please.
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Old 29th Jun 2002, 19:14
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I think that Martin A and others are way out of touch with the general feelings, and as he says they will be held accountable at the ballot box.

What a pity that it may be some time before this opportunity arises. They should take careful note of the result of the GS election and realise how out of touch with the members' feelings they are.

To me the overwhelming result is an indication of how fed up members in many companies are with the continual decline in the status, renumeration and conditions endured in the profession and how they are eager to fight for improvements instead of giving continually and having a union interested in cosy arrangements with management.

The dinosaurs need to make way for some fighters.
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Old 29th Jun 2002, 20:48
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Martin A -

I will be brief. As has been (well) said, wake up, the result is in, your man has been beaten, accept the democracy of the whole thing and move on.

That said, take a moment for me and reflect on the wider message it should convey to those of your ilk. Their softly softly, don't rock the boat, be grateful you have a job style which is exemplified by the manner in which you drone on without saying very much, has got us nowhere.

The troops have spoken; if the result isn't to your particular taste, tough. Such is the framework within which we work (and vote).
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Old 29th Jun 2002, 21:23
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Sorry, not a BALPA elected rep, just a member who volunteers do some work on a frequent basis and prepared to say who I am, what I do in BALPA added in case anyone wants to find me and speak to me . I have no more power over what goes on at NEC etc than anyone else who is a member of BALPA , I speak when asked and I speak what I feel is right, not what fits politically, but I do try not to wind people up by making unjustified personal attacks. I have found it does not get the job done so to speak and just creates a situation where someone wants to settle a personal score instead of actually dealing with problems and real issues.

As mentioned earlier, I am prepared to say who I am because I believe that you cannot have a democratic debate in a secret society, the very thing that some accuse the NEC in doing over the election of the Gen Sec ! If you read the minutes of the NEC meetings, which are public, you can deduce what, when and why the whole thing happened. Note, have just read the BALPA site, which quite clearly states that the Gen Sec is elected by law every 5 years, so that answers one of the comments made by someone earlier about "BALPA should have to elect the Gen Sec every five years! It is already done, the comment merely revealing how some seemed unaware of the process’s within BALPA which is a shame, because it means that some may have made choices based on less than accurate assumptions. Going back to candidates, this time and the one before I suppose, only one candidate was assumed at least I cannot remember anyone else’s name on a ballot paper 5 years ago. This time a second one came forward at a relatively late stage. That’s the way it goes and the system provides for that, as it rightly should. Had no other candidate been put forward the system suffers like other elections we participate in, that is, not having a "I don't like this person” or in a multiple candidacy, “I don’t like any of these, please start again” option, perhaps it should? As it doesn’t and the NEC had no apparent reason to sack, or otherwise terminate the contract, the status quo would not have seemed unreasonable.
As ANY Gen Sec is not responsible for local negotiations, it is hard to see why the relative position of us a group in the pay relativity league tables should be wholly the responsibility of a post holder who doesn’t actually do the job (i.e. the local negotiations unless invited to support) and make the final decision on acceptance. A degree of responsibility for that must lie at CC level surely ? If the CC don’t think you can squeeze the goose any harder, perhaps they decide to quite whilst ahead. Perhaps in some larger CCs, they had persons with no personal emotional stake take a look at the situation and decide that personal ego and pride had taken over and was running the risk of becoming a personal virility battle at the expense of the members ? It happens in trade unions, so no reason why we ware exempt

As to borrowing for a fund. Ask some of those at the bottom of the pile, i.e. in my case BA CEPs/DEPs with 20 to 60k of debt, if they can go out and borrow another 15k to tide them over? Yes, it is only £60 or £70 pcm, over 25 years, making somewhat over £30k to repay, but these people are already stretched enough for one of them to ask me if they could stop paying their pension contributions . So they would need to be a big rise to cover that expense, assuming we are going to be doing this every , say 5 years. Practical for some of us, but not so for many. Someone could do a quick spreadsheet answer regarding the balance of salary lost via each strike versus frequency and economic impact on an individual. There is a trade off and the gain has to be positive , not only financially, but in terms of relationships. Those at home as well as at work, because having been involved in a strike scenario (ATC early 70’s), it is not for the feint hearted for sure and does not make life easier, either before during or for some time after.
There is talk of is of talk of big pay rises and percentages. Quite keen on 20% myself , but looking at the numbers for industry, it does not seem to be the kind of rise it could stand in the overall pay bill. Yes BA has a demographic bonus in view and that issue is being addressed, i.e. how to keep the existing cash in our half of the equation not some one else’s! One can only hope that as we get into a position where we can attack this issue, that we get our just rewards. The final percentages that are likely to be achieved have to be somewhere near realistic and sustainable, note that after that big pay rise last year, UAL pilots are taking the 10% pay cut, but getting a stock option reward. A good idea and one which I understand, several people are looking at. You just have to avoid buying the shares, so to speak at Enron or World Com boom price time I suppose! Of other interest is, that that pay cut is happening, i.e cash conservation by UAL even though the US carriers have access to 15 billion dollars of US government money to help them with the economic downturn connected with Sept 11. In the UK we have had very little help, as have many other EU carriers.

As I said, I am not industrial, it is not what turns me on ! (steam, after burners Fenders and ,well the other sex thanks!), but I do want to see us work in a logical manner. The risk associated with power so to speak, being devolved down and applied in a pretty uncoordinated manner are not to be dismissed lightly. If we are to operate in terms of start a rumour etc on the basis of less than complete info and probably a degree of emotion, makes it easy for the opposition to take you out. e.g. Napoleon and Russia!
All I point out is, that there is a lot of possibly hot air is being spoken about what we can achieve and how to do it, which may not prove to be achievable, or have been shown to be achievable in a UK context. How much is being spoken by people who have experience of the finer points of industrial negotiations and the like? There are also some unfortunate misconceptions regarding governance of the association, tasks and responsibilities. we do need to communicate what is happening, but there is a risk you reveal to the opposition waht you are going to do, soas long as it is enough, let's not go over the top. as to members feelings etc, we need some better way of getting the measure it, but even now, are people talking to their reps?
There are issues that worry me and some real ones to tackle, like for example, the pay cut that some people get when their pension stops being contributed to arbitrarily, as seems will happen at for some at BA and other companies. Hard facts are there to get to grips with and fight over. However, as you know the law in the UK makes it much less easy to fight on the industrial front than in the past. The warning you give the other side, because the law says you have to, makes it easier for us to be lined up and shafted if the strategy and tactics are not well considered and within the law. That requires logic and not emotion.
Quite what anyone could have legally done over Dan Air, please state? It was a great sadness to see it go. A friend ended his life due to it. BA did itself absolutely no favours at all over how it handled it. No idea what the BALPA solution if any presented to to BA was. Did hear that BA presented an ultimatum accept or we let it sink, so what should have been done and how?
This is my own personal view, it is not anything to do with the NEC or anyone on it. I am not an industrial rep, so am exactly the same as any other member. I just try to get a little logic into an emotional debate !

TTFN

Martin Alder
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Old 29th Jun 2002, 22:03
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Is this the same Martin A who wrote 'A Question of Duty' in the latest log?

Convenient if it is because I was about to let rip a snottogram to Balpa about it. I think I'll vent my spleen here instead.

Never mind telling us about resting properly on our days off, what are you doing about the appalling rostering and disruption we are presently suffering?

We voted Balpa in at the end of last year and quite frankly they have so far managed to achieve exactly ****** all! If a company proves ' impossible to deal with' does that mean we just shrug our shoulders and plod on?

The CAA is right about one thing, CAP 371 is not effective at preventing fatigue when companies continually take the p*ss, perverting any spirit of goodwill and common sense the document needed to be effective. The CAA know it is being abused but are doing nothing to prevent it, 'because its legal.'

As for 'fatigue' not 'tiredness, a very clear difference.' !!!
Well, my Oxford English Dictionary doesn't make the difference clear, and my GP doesn't know either. This is more spin than new labour! If the next unfortunate driving home after yet another thirteen hour epic kills somebody while only 'tired', it won't count, will it!!
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Old 29th Jun 2002, 22:48
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" am merely a BALPA member and line pilot who enjoys the new medium created by the Internet to express ones views. Great isn't it !"

You are typical of those who don't have any other way to express their views other than the internet and a drivel board such as this one. You have made something like 250 posts which only says one thing to me, you need to go and get a day job. Your employer is clearly not keeping you busy enough. I doubt you would have the ability to get an elected position within BALPA even if you wanted to (thank god you don't). Thank you for your gracious comments about my last posting - praise indeed from someone as clever as you ! I guess that one way of getting a good level of exposure for http://www.0800taxi.com/ is to include it as your homepage in your profile. As of 2nd July - JF becomes the GS of BALPA. It matters not that he is just a Trojan Horse and has no intention of being a proper GS - he will be the GS and have all the responsibilities associated with that. I think he is going to find that difficult as someone who lives in France and is a BA line pilot. Lets hope that his term is office is a productive one.

I hope I never have the pleasure of sitting behind you on an aeroplane !

regards

Fuzzy
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Old 29th Jun 2002, 23:18
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Any chance somebody could set up a separate BBS where Martin A and Airrage can compose long and waffling replies to each other, using 50 words where 5 will do?

Fuzzy, you really ought to go on an anger management course.

Anybody caring to read the debates knew JFs intentions from the beginning. If the whole episode is a disaster then you will have the pleasure of saying I told you so. He and those that voted for him were not prepared to allow the status quo to continue just because it was the easy option.

I will take the pain for, what I perceive as, the greater long term good.

Robert Ayling was perceived as a disaster by those at the coal face and was ultimately unceremoniously dumped. I see many parallels with CD. He lost the confidence, rightly or wrongly, of those with the power to remove him.
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Old 29th Jun 2002, 23:43
  #100 (permalink)  
 
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JF,
I've tried to be patient trying to explain to you that maybe things aren't exactly as you perceive. People did not vote CD out because of a few false rumours or emotional pleas on the Internet. They voted CD out because frankly they are less than impressed with the last 10years under his directorship. Nearly 3000 people felt and voted this way Martin !

I have said many times before, that ultimately CD must bear some if not most of the burden for the way things have gone. Otherwise why the heck do we even bother re-appointing anyone into the vacated position. You are the one posting how lost we'll be lost why JF finds someone then you tell us CD is not responsible for anything thats happened, make up your mind. You seem to think it is out of ignorance of how BALPA works(with the CC's etc.) that people mistakenly voted out CD. WRONG, once again I am telling you that people just weren't happy and wanted NEW LEADERSHIP.

To be honest I think this will be one of my last posts on this thread because it's like talking to a brick wall. You ignore any posts despite being logical and well versed unless they agree with your viewpoint.

Most people do know that the post of GS is up for re-election every 5years, or they will now. The problem is most people don't remember the exact month or even year by the time it next comes around. Instead we rely on our union to inform us, maybe in letter form(from MG) to all members. BALPA failed miserably in this simple task, and the only logical conclusion in association with all the other letters from MG is that BALPA had every intention of keeping CD in power and that the NEC felt it knew best what was good for the members. They were wrong. Is this the democratic process you say you support ? It is only through the vociferous and yes anonymous minority(that you continue to criticise) that an election even took place.

As for criticising my mortgage loan plan to replace ones paycheck during a strike what do you suggest ? I am only trying to generate a PRO-ACTIVE approach so that with a little thought now we can avoid a mass exodus from the picket line because people weren't prepared. I clearly said it is not ideal but perhaps the best of a bad situation. It is better than your approach just to moan that militancy will die very quickly in a strike and people aren't getting paid. People need to be prepared financially before you ask them to go on strike.

As a very conservative workforce, pilots are not "INDUSTRIAL" either but having tried politely under our breaths to ask for a pay rise for the past 10years whilst continuing to get it up the backside, the time has come where we won't accept it any longer. We've seen the exec's come and go with their huge payouts and the share options granted even this month to the incumbants during this time of great difficulty. How long are we going to believe that the company hangs in the balance of our pay when our managers fly out to watch the World Cup in Japan with 50 other guests, etc, etc. the examples too numerous to type.

You say "the law in the UK makes it much less easy to fight on the industrial front than in the past." WRONG
Mr Duncan Smith(during recent multiple rail strikes) says the government has wrongly watered down much of the laws controlling trade unions introduced during the Thatcher years. He told the reporters: "We felt that the balance was OK before Labour came in, in terms of requiring pre-strike ballots and allowing employers to dismiss employees who bent the rules."
Full article

For those who want to personally get to know the UK union laws and specifics, they can be found here;
Dept.trade and Industry
You see Martin how much easier it is to actually let people view the laws themselves rather than just say how ignorant of the "finer points of Industrial Action" we are ? You see how your post might be consider arrogant.

You see Martin it's very easy to distribute knowledge to people so that they can make up their own mind. You keep telling us how we don't know the uk laws, blah blah blah. Stop taking the "we know best attitude" and start spreading this information to all of us. It's like you enjoy the feeling of having superior knowledge. In the last few weeks, with nothing but an internet connection I would like to think that I have;
- contributed to JF's victory, or at least spread the news an election was even occuring.
- given people an idea how they can afford to stay on strike if necessary. and at least get them to start thinking about how they individually might do so.
- discussed the various strategies for pay negotiations including a detailed share option alternative.
- just given people access to the exact UK union laws above, that you seem to think we are too ignorant to handle.

Yes I am not elected by any members and I am not trying to take over the union, just posting enough information(with proof) and ideas(mortgage loans) to let people make up their own minds, they're not kids. Perhaps if I was a union rep then I would have been prohibited from doing so. I like to think someones benefitted however and its more than what I've received from BALPA(most likely reasons why) to prepare me.

I'm not doubting you are a good man, but you are taking a very defeatest view to Industrial Action which may be FORCED upon us very soon by a company that understands nothing else. BALPA members are tired of people with this attitude in positions that can affect our results. Why not help prepare the members for Indutrial Action with your knowledge rather than mumble to us how difficult it is, people don't really want to strike and will cave in early, economics are dictating things(but obviously not for our managers who received their share options Jun 19, 2002), we don't know how good CD was, etc, etc.

You talk as if all other posts but your own are illogical and just emotion based. I disagree. You need to take a serious look at how well you listen to other peoples inputs. This is not a personal slanging match between me, you or anyone else. Don't just critisice my efforts on preparing people for a strike if you have better ideas please let us all know, we're going to need all the help we can get. BALPA members don't want to hear about hard something is to do, if it was easy we wouldn't need a union in the first place. It's time to stick our heads above the parapet, it won't be easy but we're never going to benefit if we don't. Martin your posts epitomise the attitude of failure that has existed in BALPA over the last 10years. We want change, that is why CD lost.

Finally just so you can quit your suspicions that I may not be who I claim to be(I think you mentioned a disgruntled man north of Adrians Wall) and stop going on about its ok for anonymous posters , etc, etc, I am.......

Kevin Judkins
SFO 777.

Not that the name means anything to you or anyone else here probably. Now lets get on with the business of preparing for the coming "Negotiations".

Last edited by airrage; 29th Jun 2002 at 23:57.
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