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American flies Non-ETOPS A321 to Hawaii

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American flies Non-ETOPS A321 to Hawaii

Old 12th Sep 2015, 02:37
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American flies Non-ETOPS A321 to Hawaii

AA starting flying A321s to Hawaii recently - seems they accidentally dispatched a non-ETOPS model. It wasn't noticed until past the PNR.

Had to be ferried back empty.

Oops: American Accidentally Flies Wrong Plane To Hawaii - One Mile at a Time
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Old 12th Sep 2015, 07:19
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From the article in the link:

I wonder who ended up taking the blame for that one!
Easy, the Captain did.

We can't fly steep approaches with aircraft not certified to for it, we can't fly CAT II/III approaches with aircraft not certified for it.....and we can't fly ETOPS sectors with aircraft not certified for it. Pretty simple. Having said that, it could probably happen to all of us considering they apparently have some A321s that are ETOPS certified and some that are not.

CP
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Old 12th Sep 2015, 08:40
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Easy, the Captain did.
Maybe AAL could take a leaf out of United's book:

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Old 12th Sep 2015, 09:14
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Dave , I think we all could. What a splendid idea. I once had a tech prob that led to an aircraft change. Replacement bird had unserviceable APU but we were still dispatched ETOPS. Because of previous experiences I was completely paranoid and remonstrated with dispatch about how I felt their latest attempt to drop me in the poo would not succeed. I was told by the fabbo CP to relax. No one was coming after me ! Mind you, you could paint "ETOPS" on a non-ETOPS plane in the hope that some rotter would fall for it ! Damn, here I go again...................................here come the trolls..............................!
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Old 12th Sep 2015, 12:02
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ahhhhh yes the (dis)integrated ops centre....
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Old 12th Sep 2015, 12:33
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Maybe AAL could take a leaf out of United's book:
They already have....



Ok that is a US Airways craft but AA are the same I think.

Having said that I can't find an image of a New American liveried 757 with ETOPS on the nose gear doors.
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Old 12th Sep 2015, 13:28
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Whether it was there or not, it is required to be there.
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Old 12th Sep 2015, 13:52
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Having said that I can't find an image of a New American liveried 757 with ETOPS on the nose gear doors.
AAL's A321s helpfully have the aircraft type on the NW door above the fleet number (presumably in case pilots forget and think they are walking round a 757).
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Old 12th Sep 2015, 13:55
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Looking quickly through my own photos and those on a well known aviation photo site, the only American A321s with ETOPS displayed on them which I could find are the former USAir aircraft, including those now in AAL livery.
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Old 12th Sep 2015, 14:19
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From the article in the link:
Quote:

I wonder who ended up taking the blame for that one!

Easy, the Captain did.
Yep, it doesn't matter if you were set up like a bowling pin at the last minute with the wrong plane, the wrong paperwork or missing ETOPS weather, it's your fault as PIC these days. And, if it isn't already there, a paragraph buried deeply in the manual will soon probably have you double check the tail number against some OPSPEC's list of approved ETOPS planes.

Normally an ETOPS flight requires a special maintenance release, was this missed or was it inadvertently signed off on a non-ETOPS plane?

I heard it was 3 check airman that flew it there.
Check airmen flying to Hawaii? I'm shocked, shocked I tell you.

A lot of those folks write the books but some don't read them in my experience. When they blunder into a regulatory issue like this, with nobody hurt and nothing bent, typically their check airman letter is suspended for, say, six months. They teach sims, fly the plane and work on training materials (like a new ETOPS preflight bulletin) with little loss of pay.

In this case since all three pilots were probably similarly qualified, the punishment from the feds will probably be the same even though one is signed for the plane from a recent similar event I am familiar with.

And, at least they were already in position in HNL for the Part 91 non-ETOPS ferry back, right?
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Old 12th Sep 2015, 14:21
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American never purchased the narrow body Airbus - all of them are former USAir / America West fins.
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Old 12th Sep 2015, 15:02
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Part 91?

Not likely to be a Part 91 but rather Part 121 issued ferry permit. The paperwork required for going from 121 to 91 and back to 121 is akin to a sex change.
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Old 12th Sep 2015, 15:05
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American never purchased the narrow body Airbus - all of them are former USAir / America West fins.
The ex USAir examples retained their USAir registrations and ETOPS markings. The newer batch (still in the process of being delivered) are allocated typical AAL registrations and apparently do not seem to indicate their ETOPS status where applicable. Of course it could be that only some of the former USAir examples are ETOPS certified.
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Old 12th Sep 2015, 17:10
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Not likely to be a Part 91 but rather Part 121 issued ferry permit. The paperwork required for going from 121 to 91 and back to 121 is akin to a sex change.
Izzat so?

It's been quite a while but I've certainly ferried a widebody Part 91 for a Part 121 carrier without a Part 121 ferry permit. At least I think I have.

The paperwork looks the pretty much the same except there is no signature line for the captain on the Part 91 dispatch release. I'll let the purists argue over whether you are actually dispatched in this instance.

I was thinking that you needed a ferry permit for certain maintenance problems but that you could carry an otherwise functional non-ETOPs twin overwater Part 91 empty without a permit. Even with the ferry permit, I believe the operation is considered Part 91 for crew rest and weather purposes.

But a lot of this stuff depends on the OPSPEC's and FOM for a particular carrier. Anybody know how AA does it (this week )?
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Old 12th Sep 2015, 17:22
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Never having been an ETOPS operator, can someone explain what happens beyond the (convenient) PNR to suddenly make them realise they were non-ETOPS?
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Old 12th Sep 2015, 17:41
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Facts -

AA has about 70+ Airbus'. Growing by 25-35 each year. That's not including LUS's Airbus'

It was two regular line pilots.

No, the Captain was not found at fault.

AA ETOPS Airbus' have ETOPS on the fuselage.
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Old 12th Sep 2015, 18:29
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Airbubba:

Normally an ETOPS flight requires a special maintenance release, was this missed or was it inadvertently signed off on a non-ETOPS plane?
I was working when our 767 fleet was the first to become ETOPs qualified. But, for each ETOPs flight, maintenance had to make an entry in the aircraft maintenance log that the ETOPs inspection and necessary maintence was completed.
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Old 12th Sep 2015, 18:38
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You can DEFINITELY go from 121 to 91 and back. You just can't carry passengers on the part 91 leg. I work for a carrier with about 200+ planes and we do this ALL THE TIME. Ferry permits still have their place in our ops, but part 91 repo is a near daily occurrence.
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Old 12th Sep 2015, 18:39
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Originally Posted by misd-agin View Post
AA ETOPS Airbus' have ETOPS on the fuselage.
It's either in very, very small letters or only recently applied:

Photo: N133AN (CN: 6482) American Airlines Airbus A321-231 by Alex Brodkey Photoid: 8003369 - JetPhotos.Net
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Old 12th Sep 2015, 19:11
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Today's flight was operated by N127AA. Unfortunately the most recent photos I can find date back to June this year. They certainly don't show any indication of ETOPS on the exterior paintwork. Perhaps, as Dave R suggests, it is a very recent addition.

J.O. said:
American never purchased the narrow body Airbus - all of them are former USAir / America West fins.
According to Airbus the order was signed by AMERICAN AIRLINES July 20th, 2011.

Last edited by Hotel Tango; 12th Sep 2015 at 19:23.
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