American flies Non-ETOPS A321 to Hawaii
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-- How that ship number was offered to the pilots of the flight to take
...and...
-- Why the pilots took it?
...and...
-- Why the pilots took it?
There's an aircraft management system which picks which aircraft is to fly particular flights on particular routes, based on operational optimizations.
This system was not correctly configured with the list of eligible A321s for Hawaii, so it selected a non-ETOPS A321 by chance.
Holes in processes meant that this mistake was not caught by anyone (including dispatchers and pilots) until the flight was already in the air.
First thing to do is to correctly code which A321s are eligible for the route in the aircraft management system.
Second thing to do is to add procedural cross-checks to catch any mistakes.
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Apples and oranges getting mixed together here. The ground school covers all arenas. ETOPS is covered. Hawaii is covered. Neither require a flight checkout. Cross reference chart, and CKA, both state that an ETOPS, or Hawaii flight, is not required before flying to Hawaii.
MIA-SJU is not ETOPS. No ETOPS requirements.
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Airbubba - "I'd almost bet the 75 minute benign area of ops is still buried somewhere in your OPSPEC's, it seems to be common among U.S. carriers for Caribbean operations. Most folks have never heard of it though. It is a legacy deviation from FAR 121.161 first issued in 1977 and is sometimes called 75 minute ETOPS."
You could be correct. I'm not an OpsSec expert. If I was aware of '75 minute ETOPS benign area of ops' in the past I've used fermented yeast as a catalyst to kill those brain cells.
You could be correct. I'm not an OpsSec expert. If I was aware of '75 minute ETOPS benign area of ops' in the past I've used fermented yeast as a catalyst to kill those brain cells.
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If I was aware of '75 minute ETOPS benign area of ops' in the past I've used fermented yeast as a catalyst to kill those brain cells.
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Surely there is no such thing as "the most failsafe"...
Something either fails safe or it doesn't.
If no ETOPS signage = no flight then any failure to provide the required signage would result in a safe condition, i.e. no flight!
Of course, the presence of signage alone could never ensure that any required human processes, such as checks and maintenance, had been completed. Which is why signage should only really be relied upon as an additional layer of protection.
Something either fails safe or it doesn't.
If no ETOPS signage = no flight then any failure to provide the required signage would result in a safe condition, i.e. no flight!
Of course, the presence of signage alone could never ensure that any required human processes, such as checks and maintenance, had been completed. Which is why signage should only really be relied upon as an additional layer of protection.
Signage can never be fail-safe.
In this case you should have a system of controls.
- Aircraft management system
- Human check - dispatcher
- Human check - pilot signage check
- Flight management system
When you buy an A320 however, you simply cannot go out and start flying them ETOPS, you need to obtain APPROVAL from your regulator. Some operators fly A320 that are perfectly capable of flying ETOPS, however they choose not to have them approved to save some costs on maintenance.
The aircraft in question had no idea it was over water or over land.
This is an error on part of the scheduling and dispatch, there should be a process in place that prevents these aircraft being scheduled/dispatched for these flights. It’s too late when you have 200 pax waiting to get onboard to have wait for someone to do a walk around to notice something painted on the fuselage.
Personally there are better ways to do this, change the color of the tech log/ipad for ETOPS aircraft. One black, one orange, mechanics and pilots know the drill at a glance.
I don't know how universal this is, but I've noticed that Delta has a rather prominent "ETOPS" painted large letters on the nose of the aircraft - forward of the nose gear. Readily observable during walkaround and by the ground crew prior to dispatch so long as they bother looking.
I don't know how universal this is, but I've noticed that Delta has a rather prominent "ETOPS" painted large letters on the nose of the aircraft - forward of the nose gear. Readily observable during walkaround and by the ground crew prior to dispatch so long as they bother looking.
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Nose Wheel door check
Haven't flow commercial in a while but I thought I have seen on some carriers the word "ETOPS" on the nosewheel door?
If that's the case it should been caught on the pre-flight walk around.
Sorry, shouldof have read post #110.
If that's the case it should been caught on the pre-flight walk around.
Sorry, should
American flies non-ETOPS A321 to Hawaii
Don't ever be fooled by what is written on the side of an aeroplane. ETOPS certified maybe. But ETOPS compliant,on the day, is something else.
Flt Dispatch will plan and ATC file for ETOPS if they know the aircraft is compliant. FD Crew will know during briefing that they are embarking upon ETOPS flt. Pilot doing the walk-round will gain some comfort that "ETOPS" is written on the side of the nosewheel gear doors. Yes, we DO notice.
On Board, Skip will read through the Tech log and ensure that the Min Eqpt List meets the spec for the ETOPS sector.
Quite a few potential holes in the cheese.
Muscat to Trivandrum, left the FD to chat up swiss chic (sorry, said that to annoy) ...........NW India, somewhere. GOt back and Cojo had turned the corner early and was proceeding direct, chopping off 50 minutes. I pointed out that for 10 minutes,halfway along, we were technically ETOPS. The aircraft had inop APU but otherwise an ETOPS aircraft. I turned back to planned airways with apology to ATC. Cojo bought t he Jack & Cokes.
.
Flt Dispatch will plan and ATC file for ETOPS if they know the aircraft is compliant. FD Crew will know during briefing that they are embarking upon ETOPS flt. Pilot doing the walk-round will gain some comfort that "ETOPS" is written on the side of the nosewheel gear doors. Yes, we DO notice.
On Board, Skip will read through the Tech log and ensure that the Min Eqpt List meets the spec for the ETOPS sector.
Quite a few potential holes in the cheese.
Muscat to Trivandrum, left the FD to chat up swiss chic (sorry, said that to annoy) ...........NW India, somewhere. GOt back and Cojo had turned the corner early and was proceeding direct, chopping off 50 minutes. I pointed out that for 10 minutes,halfway along, we were technically ETOPS. The aircraft had inop APU but otherwise an ETOPS aircraft. I turned back to planned airways with apology to ATC. Cojo bought t he Jack & Cokes.
.
I’m don’t have ETOPS experience so bear with me, but it would seem to me that the problem with having ETOPS painted on (EG, the nose wheel door) is that it’s still there if the aircraft becomes temporarily non-ETOPS compliant. Every airliner I’ve flown has had a coloured tag in the Captains eye-line stating CAT 1/2/3 etc so you have no excuse, even if you’ve missed the info in the Tech log, to attempt at CAT 2 or 3 approach in an aircraft that’s not capable. Surely an ETOPS / NON-ETOPS tag next to it would be the simplest and more or less fool proof solution?
I’m don’t have ETOPS experience so bear with me, but it would seem to me that the problem with having ETOPS painted on (EG, the nose wheel door) is that it’s still there if the aircraft becomes temporarily non-ETOPS compliant. Every airliner I’ve flown has had a coloured tag in the Captains eye-line stating CAT 1/2/3 etc so you have no excuse, even if you’ve missed the info in the Tech log, to attempt at CAT 2 or 3 approach in an aircraft that’s not capable. Surely an ETOPS / NON-ETOPS tag next to it would be the simplest and more or less fool proof solution?
I sure hope that's SOP, because there are a lot of things on the MEL that would be far more important for the flight crew to know about prior to dispatch...
Isn't it SOP to check the book for any MEL related items prior to dispatch - which would include if something made the aircraft non-ETOPS capable?
I sure hope that's SOP, because there are a lot of things on the MEL that would be far more important for the flight crew to know about prior to dispatch...
I sure hope that's SOP, because there are a lot of things on the MEL that would be far more important for the flight crew to know about prior to dispatch...