BA 777 on fire in Las Vegas
AD published in 2011
Given that the AD related to the 8-10 compressor stages was published in 2011, hasn't there been plenty of time in which to redesign and fit replacement parts to eliminate the problem across the fleet?
Sure, doing so would have been expensive. However, if this had turned into a fatal accident, avoidance of that expense might now look negligent.
This raises questions as to how long a known and potentially (and in this case very nearly) fatal defect should be allowed to persist regardless of the perceived likelihood.
Now that this has happened, it is also worth questioning whether the industry has its priorities right. GE/Boeing were not in favour of the FAA's inspection regime, presumably because of the cost and inconvenience to their customers. Four years down the line the expense could have been billions in fines and compensation had the BA crew not succeeded in conducting a textbook evacuation. This sounds like penny pinching on a large scale, and the consequences might have been the lives of passengers.
Writing as a passenger, that doesn't look great to me. What would have looked great was a proactive replacement program in excess of the FAA's requirement starting 4 years ago. Writing as an engineer it is yet another example of big businesses failing to acknowledge and act on "unlikely" risks with a catastrophic outcome merely for the sake of small amounts of short term money.
GE/Boeing have just had a lucky escape; they may well end up carrying the can for this one. Thanks to the BA crew the can isn't so big. If the NTSB finds that it was indeed the 8-10 compressor that failed then that won't exactly help GE/Boeing in their sales campaigns...
Sure, doing so would have been expensive. However, if this had turned into a fatal accident, avoidance of that expense might now look negligent.
This raises questions as to how long a known and potentially (and in this case very nearly) fatal defect should be allowed to persist regardless of the perceived likelihood.
Now that this has happened, it is also worth questioning whether the industry has its priorities right. GE/Boeing were not in favour of the FAA's inspection regime, presumably because of the cost and inconvenience to their customers. Four years down the line the expense could have been billions in fines and compensation had the BA crew not succeeded in conducting a textbook evacuation. This sounds like penny pinching on a large scale, and the consequences might have been the lives of passengers.
Writing as a passenger, that doesn't look great to me. What would have looked great was a proactive replacement program in excess of the FAA's requirement starting 4 years ago. Writing as an engineer it is yet another example of big businesses failing to acknowledge and act on "unlikely" risks with a catastrophic outcome merely for the sake of small amounts of short term money.
GE/Boeing have just had a lucky escape; they may well end up carrying the can for this one. Thanks to the BA crew the can isn't so big. If the NTSB finds that it was indeed the 8-10 compressor that failed then that won't exactly help GE/Boeing in their sales campaigns...
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Despite what the planespotting websites say, G-VIIO has not been written off yet.
Damage isn't as bad as first thought, although not an official word it's likely to be repaired. Problem isn't the wingbox, as previously mentioned the fuel tank wasn't penetrated. Fuel leak source was engine #1. If wing spar isn't significantly damaged, a new engine, slats, composite panelling and a repaint etc will see her fly again.
According to the latest news. One 744 and 767 from our longhaul programmes will remain for an extra few years.
Damage isn't as bad as first thought, although not an official word it's likely to be repaired. Problem isn't the wingbox, as previously mentioned the fuel tank wasn't penetrated. Fuel leak source was engine #1. If wing spar isn't significantly damaged, a new engine, slats, composite panelling and a repaint etc will see her fly again.
According to the latest news. One 744 and 767 from our longhaul programmes will remain for an extra few years.
You would sell it for far less than you would spend getting it airworthy again. They have a large 772 fleet so take # 2, avionics, gear, brakes, apu, doors, hydraulics, rudder, spoilers, tabs, undamaged slats/flaps, panels, fuel lines, galleys, lavs etc out and use them for spares.
I know many of their 744s are self insured, not sure about the older triplers
I know many of their 744s are self insured, not sure about the older triplers
Last edited by Una Due Tfc; 16th Sep 2015 at 01:00.
Up to the insurer, who have people employed to crunch the numbers in fix/write off cases. However the QANTAS B744 overrun in BKK was fixed even though it wasn't economic, in order to avoid the stigma of a hull loss.
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Aircraft structural aluminum alloys are heat treated/aged metal.
If the wing box was heated excessively, the metal could lose strength without being holed.
The fuel on the other side of the panels acts to absorb heat from the metal and initially will limit the temperature rise, but when the fuel gets hot enough, there may be a loss of heat transfer as boiling of fuel begins and the metal can then begin to cook.
They will probably do hardness tests of the wing skin to evaluate its strength in the heat affected areas.
If the wing box was heated excessively, the metal could lose strength without being holed.
The fuel on the other side of the panels acts to absorb heat from the metal and initially will limit the temperature rise, but when the fuel gets hot enough, there may be a loss of heat transfer as boiling of fuel begins and the metal can then begin to cook.
They will probably do hardness tests of the wing skin to evaluate its strength in the heat affected areas.
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Having looked at the seriousness of the fire in this one, if that had happened on immediate climb out, I think the odds would have been against them getting back.
The way the crew dealt with this shows such positive traits in BA's CRM culture. Hats off to pilots and cabin crew
The way the crew dealt with this shows such positive traits in BA's CRM culture. Hats off to pilots and cabin crew
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Well when G-YMMM was w/o BA was left with only one spare covering LHR/LGW (based from LHR) 772 operations. Cost is irrelevant, the long-term impact of having an operation run ragged isn't cost efficient in the long-run.
What @Machinbird says, Boeing will Material test the aircraft. G-VIIO had a D Check in Cardiff last year, and B check end of last Year. According to The BA Source. But the problem isn't the wingbox, it's the wing-spar that was exposed in this case.
What @Machinbird says, Boeing will Material test the aircraft. G-VIIO had a D Check in Cardiff last year, and B check end of last Year. According to The BA Source. But the problem isn't the wingbox, it's the wing-spar that was exposed in this case.
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Windsheer:
[I]"Having looked at the seriousness of the fire in this one, if that had happened on immediate climb out, I think the odds would have been against them getting back.
The way the crew dealt with this shows such positive traits in BA's CRM culture. Hats off to pilots and cabin crew"[/I]
Whole heartedly agree with you first paragraph....
Great action from the crews, yes, but let's not forget the LAS ARFF and Airport Operations who also played a critical part in all this.
One of the key factors involved in a positive outcome for this incident was the runway being used (7L, intersection A8 - look at the airport diagram for KLAS/LAS). It is in close proximity to the fire station and that's why everyone was able to get on scene in about a minute - well inside the FAA-mandated time of three minutes. And the fire was extinguished in another 45 seconds. Where seconds matter, there is no doubt that location was a factor in the incident.
Footnote: GE engine now removed and en route to a GE facility. Airframe remains at the LAS cargo ramp............
[I]"Having looked at the seriousness of the fire in this one, if that had happened on immediate climb out, I think the odds would have been against them getting back.
The way the crew dealt with this shows such positive traits in BA's CRM culture. Hats off to pilots and cabin crew"[/I]
Whole heartedly agree with you first paragraph....
Great action from the crews, yes, but let's not forget the LAS ARFF and Airport Operations who also played a critical part in all this.
One of the key factors involved in a positive outcome for this incident was the runway being used (7L, intersection A8 - look at the airport diagram for KLAS/LAS). It is in close proximity to the fire station and that's why everyone was able to get on scene in about a minute - well inside the FAA-mandated time of three minutes. And the fire was extinguished in another 45 seconds. Where seconds matter, there is no doubt that location was a factor in the incident.
Footnote: GE engine now removed and en route to a GE facility. Airframe remains at the LAS cargo ramp............
The event aircraft shows as over 84,500 hours and 12,700 cycles.
Given the residual value of the systems, avionics, and remaining engine it wouldn't take much of a repair bill to exceed the value of the airframe.
Given the residual value of the systems, avionics, and remaining engine it wouldn't take much of a repair bill to exceed the value of the airframe.
Having looked at the seriousness of the fire in this one, if that had happened on immediate climb out, I think the odds would have been against them getting back.
QANTAS went through a period of uncontained engine failures a few years ago on its RR powered B744s. A modification was unable to be carried out as they had closed their RR engine shop and every other facility in the world was busy doing work for other airlines.
Aircraft were kept flying with a known risk, could it be something similar here ?
Aircraft were kept flying with a known risk, could it be something similar here ?
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THIS SIDE LOOKS NORMAL
NTSB has published a picture of the left side of the failed engine following removal.
It would have been nice of them to show the other side so we can see the holes in the case and the fuel manifold and have something factual to talk about.
It would have been nice of them to show the other side so we can see the holes in the case and the fuel manifold and have something factual to talk about.
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alexb757
Yes, but I think these are two separate things.
The fire service did a very good and prompt job, but it was ultimately the a/c crew that saved loss of life through the good decision to get everyone off when they did. Much more of a delay in that decision could have been disastrous through a smoke filled fuselage, regardless of whether fire crews were present.
Hats off to all!!!
Great action from the crews, yes, but let's not forget the LAS ARFF and Airport Operations who also played a critical part in all this.
The fire service did a very good and prompt job, but it was ultimately the a/c crew that saved loss of life through the good decision to get everyone off when they did. Much more of a delay in that decision could have been disastrous through a smoke filled fuselage, regardless of whether fire crews were present.
Hats off to all!!!
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Some comments that the engine on this aircraft sas not subject to the AD referred to earlier in this thread: Failed Engine Type On BA 777 Was Subject To 2011 AD | Aero-News Network