BA 777 on fire in Las Vegas
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Under the Bovingdon hold
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BA own about the same number of GE engined -200 aircraft as RR Trent powered types.
We still have 3 of the original GE -76 "A market" short range -200s ply the UK to east coast routes, whilst the longer range -85 powered models are used world wide, but lack the range and bunks of the longer legged Trent models.
BA evacuation procedures require the Fuel Cutoff Switches to be operated BEFORE the Fire Switches as a relic of the days before the Fire Switch was modified to automatically shutoff all of the fuel pump/spar valves. AFAIK, all BA aircraft have been modified since the BA38 incident.
We still have 3 of the original GE -76 "A market" short range -200s ply the UK to east coast routes, whilst the longer range -85 powered models are used world wide, but lack the range and bunks of the longer legged Trent models.
BA evacuation procedures require the Fuel Cutoff Switches to be operated BEFORE the Fire Switches as a relic of the days before the Fire Switch was modified to automatically shutoff all of the fuel pump/spar valves. AFAIK, all BA aircraft have been modified since the BA38 incident.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: London, UK
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
* And so - in a highly-stressed, totally unfamiliar situation - one which they have only seen in movies - their brain reacts weirdly. It tries to make sense of what's going on. It tries to re-establish some normality. "The plane has stopped, I must get my hand luggage."
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: .
Posts: 309
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think that inclusion in the safety video of footage showing 2 different evacuation scenarios could fix the problem of people evacuating with luggage.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: In the sticks
Posts: 9,843
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by LTNman
Just make the central locking engage when a constant voltage is applied. If power is cut or turned off then it defaults to release.
Central locking overhead lockers when taking off and landing would have stopped passengers taking their luggage down the chutes.
And if said fire was in an overhead compartment and the central locking couldn't unlock it because of burnt wires etc. so the crew could get to and extinguish the fire?
Could it be that what ever exited number 1 engine at 4 o'clock elf (hpc , turbine?) bounced off the tarmac and up into the fuse severing fuel lines or opening the centre tank and that's where the fire was concentrated?
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 887
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well done to the crew for remaining so composed given the clear size and intensity of the blaze. Also very well done to the fire crews at McCarran for dealing with the problem so swiftly and effectively. I know it's their job but credit where credit is due for a job well done. Not been mentioned too many times so far in this thread.
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: UK
Age: 35
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TWR - With respect to disks - the energy these things are running at coupled with the totally random nature of a failure makes it inevitable that they will be uncontained. The goal of the compressor area is to raise pressure but this obviously raises temperature with it. The second you introduce fire or temperature within the casing, you are raising the temperature outside of the normal operating zone placing materials beyond operating limits and failure becomes inevitable. The subsequent release of energy however is subjective and completely dependent on so many factors. As such, sometimes a disk failure event is contained and sometimes it isn't but the energies and highly random nature of a failure makes it impossible to really contain.
The Qantas failure was also not a failure of the casing exactly, it was a defect in an oil stub pipe which fed oil to the LPT area which is already running at high temperature, oil leaking into this area makes a fire and failure of some kind inevitable. The eventual domino effect release of energy is just something the casing cannot cope with, not one made of lightweight alloys anyway. Most work is done to prevent a failure ever occurring rather than to mitigate the failure. Disks are therefore designated as safety critical because they will endanger flight if they fail so failure is not something that should ever really happen. Diligent operation, preventative maintenance and also good design are the main reason we rarely see disk failures so it would be worrying if one has occurred here.
In this case, it is hard to judge from the images and accounts so far but speculating I suspect the fire was mainly precipitated by oil but it is not possible to say why or how. The passengers and captain's account of what happened during the takeoff will reveal far more about this I am sure. Personally I am just glad this aircraft did not make it into the air.
The Qantas failure was also not a failure of the casing exactly, it was a defect in an oil stub pipe which fed oil to the LPT area which is already running at high temperature, oil leaking into this area makes a fire and failure of some kind inevitable. The eventual domino effect release of energy is just something the casing cannot cope with, not one made of lightweight alloys anyway. Most work is done to prevent a failure ever occurring rather than to mitigate the failure. Disks are therefore designated as safety critical because they will endanger flight if they fail so failure is not something that should ever really happen. Diligent operation, preventative maintenance and also good design are the main reason we rarely see disk failures so it would be worrying if one has occurred here.
In this case, it is hard to judge from the images and accounts so far but speculating I suspect the fire was mainly precipitated by oil but it is not possible to say why or how. The passengers and captain's account of what happened during the takeoff will reveal far more about this I am sure. Personally I am just glad this aircraft did not make it into the air.
It is in a first world city. Passport and medications will be replaced as a priority
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Standby, Resyncing other FMC...
Posts: 131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How many deaths have we had due to pax bringing hand luggage during an evacuation? What would be the cost of retrofitting all aircraft with central locking? Cost-benefit calculation anyone?
Get real guys. Focus on the big issues threatening air safety like working and employment conditions.
Get real guys. Focus on the big issues threatening air safety like working and employment conditions.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Nottingham
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am pleased nobody was seriously injured in this incident but BA long haul is less likely to have problems with hand baggage in an emergency evacuation than the low cost short haul carriers such as Ryanair mentioned above. They actively discourage passengers from putting luggage in the hold and have also relaxed their previously strict carry on policy in an attempt to be more “passenger friendly”. On my last flight with Ryanair in the summer, passengers were struggling with two carryon bags, blocking the aisles as they boarded and disembarked which undoubtedly would also have happened in an emergency evacuation. My primary irritation at the time was the fact that there was no overhead locker space remaining and my carryon bag had to go into the hold anyway. There was nothing in the safety briefing about leaving bags behind in the event of an emergency evacuation although plenty about putting on a lifejacket in the more unlikely event of a survivable ditching. Should the safety briefing be updated from what was appropriate in piston propeller days and be more suited to purpose for modern aircraft?
It's pointless ranting about how stupid passengers are for taking hand luggage down the slides. Ranting about it isn't going to change a single thing.
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: London, UK
Age: 67
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
anengineer expresses the luggage down the slide problem perfectly. If there is a problem with luggage in this sort of scenario, and it looks very much as if there is, then the solution is unlikely to be to ask people nicely to behave in a certain way. Dispassionate analysis required. Jacob Steinberg in today's Guardian, who was on the plane, describes things from the passenger viewpoint very well - worth a read.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Dublin
Posts: 987
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A perfect example of the real reason we have flight attendants on board. Our safety.
No doubt lessons learnt from this incident will contribute to our collective knowledge on how passengers act in an emergency situation.
No doubt lessons learnt from this incident will contribute to our collective knowledge on how passengers act in an emergency situation.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: In my own little world
Posts: 1,475
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
1 Post
With ref to Sober Lark's post has anyone got a copy of the poster that was around many years ago with the caption
Flight Attendants, there to save your butt not kiss it.
A copy should be up in every crew room worldwide.
Flight Attendants, there to save your butt not kiss it.
A copy should be up in every crew room worldwide.
13 crew and 159 pax, of whom 13 or 14 (reports vary) suffered minor injuries during the evacuation.
That seems an unusually high proportion (around 8%). Without wishing to fuel the hand baggage debate, I wouldn't be surprised if hurling carry-ons down the slides turns out to be implicated in some of those injuries.
That seems an unusually high proportion (around 8%). Without wishing to fuel the hand baggage debate, I wouldn't be surprised if hurling carry-ons down the slides turns out to be implicated in some of those injuries.
Flight Attendants, there to save your butt not kiss it.
People /passengers (and Pilots) are creatures of habit.
Locking the overheads sounds like a good idea until you realize that many passengers won't realize why they can't open them and stay on board desperately trying to open them up to get their bags possibly losing their lives as a result.
If they're going to take their bags you can't stop them, better to just get them off ASAP.
Pilots have been know to do the same thing in the past..
Locking the overheads sounds like a good idea until you realize that many passengers won't realize why they can't open them and stay on board desperately trying to open them up to get their bags possibly losing their lives as a result.
If they're going to take their bags you can't stop them, better to just get them off ASAP.
Pilots have been know to do the same thing in the past..
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: El Dorado
Posts: 162
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How many deaths have we had due to pax bringing hand luggage during an evacuation? What would be the cost of retrofitting all aircraft with central locking? Cost-benefit calculation anyone?
Get real guys. Focus on the big issues threatening air safety like working and employment conditions.
Get real guys. Focus on the big issues threatening air safety like working and employment conditions.
Quite true. But every time there is an evacuation, ppruners come out of the woodwork to whine on about how stupid pax. They make the same comments every time, every single time. They do it because it makes them feel superior. Its rather like the those who, in a crash thread, rush to be the first to post METARs.
Unfortunately, a lot of the present generation aviation 'professionals' have downgraded themselves into "inside-the-box" thinkers who will blindly follow orders coming from middle/senior management.
"Button-pushers," "magenta-line-followers" and "minimum-rest-minimum-fuel-maximum-duty-pilots" is the result, and that's a MUCH bigger and more permanent danger to aviation safety than a handful of passengers taking their hand luggage during an evacuation.
Airlines are quite happy to throw out the baby with the bathwater by pushing more and more passengers into taking only hand luggage, so it's natural for passengers to take their 'vital' hand luggage even during an evacuation.
The governments and various 'authorities' up the ante by having turned our once free society into a virtual police state, making you feel completely vulnerable and 'naked' when stuck somewhere without your passport, wallet, some clean clothes/underwear and tablet PC/laptop.
Passengers take their hand luggage because they know they will be left to fend for themselves and completely at the mercy of governments/immigration authorities and airlines where you have to stand in long queues on order to get some lousy hotel/food/drink vouchers.
