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BA 777 on fire in Las Vegas

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BA 777 on fire in Las Vegas

Old 9th Sep 2015, 12:01
  #141 (permalink)  
 
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Something about an uncontained engine failure that may not be apparent if you haven't experienced one: I was aboard a B-52H that put a fan blade through a cowling and the noise was immense, like being inside the world's largest pipe organ. I am pretty sure that in this incident every soul on board knew there was a serious problem as soon as it happened.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 12:02
  #142 (permalink)  
 
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@Gordomac

Well said.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 12:02
  #143 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Dave's brother View Post
A lot is being written yet again about how stupid passengers are who grab their hand luggage during an emergency evacuation. Well, yes, but only up to a point, in my view.

<<SNIP>>
An excellent post by Dave's Brother.

How many of the ranting anti-cabin baggage group have gone to you tube and the BA safety video? The 'and take nothing with you' is a throw away line in the video given less emphasis than blowing into the tube of a live vest. In another airline it is some words scrolling on a bus destination board and in one I regularly fly on it is never mentioned.

If it is that important that pax do not take their valuable possessions with them then the airlines (that is you Ppruners) are going to have to change.

First. Make it totally plain to everyone that in an emergency evacuation pax must NOT take bags with them. Repeat it. Sack marketing men who hide this advice in jokey 'right on' giggling safety briefings. Safety briefings must be formal and start with LISTEN TO THIS IT MAY SAVE YOUR LIFE level warnings and pax that talk/read in a safety briefing should be called out as endangering themselves and the other pax.

Second. The Airline needs to take responsibility for looking after pax who lose wallets and documentation and luggage. Almost always airlines take no responsibility for what happens to pax after an evacuation. As reported earlier in the thread to the extent that pax who obeyed the 'no hand baggage' rules were incarcerated for a day and a half before their embassy could produce replacement papers. Not our problem says the airline - but it is as pax know that the airlines (that many of you moaners work for ) will abandon them to the joys of dealing with unsympathetic immigration officers - so they take their bags with those papers with them in evacuations.

Third. Rather like the above the airline must secure the pax belongings left behind. In several incidents pax lost expensive equipment because they left it behind as they were told by the moaners here and the airline failed in its duty of care. If pax suspect their valuables are going to be stolen they will not want to leave them in an evacuation.

Fourth. Airlines should provide cheap small document and cell phone pouches of an international standard size and design to pax and assure them that those WILL be allowed with them during evacuations. Just making pax look at the bags and what they are for will reinforce the no other bags warnings.

The airlines must be proactive before the incidents rather than prosecute after an incident when it is too late.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 12:04
  #144 (permalink)  
 
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Well Done all round.
Everything done as per training.

Listening to the ATC tape, there does appear to be a time-gap between the Speedbird stopping message, and the Mayday fire services requested message.
Did the flight crew not realise that a fire was (or was likely to have) started?
ATC appear to have despatched fire services anyway, but given this delay, and the damage already occuring to the fueselage/cabin, we're looking at few seconds before catastrophe, it seems.

In now way am I critical, but I'm just interested in this gap between announcing stop, and calling for fire service.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 12:08
  #145 (permalink)  
 
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The ATC was busy and I think that is the only reason.
By and large the reaction time by everyone concerned was remarkable.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 12:11
  #146 (permalink)  

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Snoop

I don't know for certain yet but I think the wing tank remained undamaged. A flight from LAS would have full wings and the rest in the CWT. A punctured tank(s) with blazing fuel pouring out I think the damage would be just a tad more severe!
The damage to the motor appears to be on the left hand side, mounted there is the MFP and the HMU and the main fuel feed tubing. A compressor blade departing company would not penetrate the casing, however an HPT blade departing at the disc might just have enough energy.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 12:15
  #147 (permalink)  
 
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'Interested Passenger', the BA 737 RTO/fire at Manchester in which nearly half the passengers were killed by smoke inhalation demonstrated the importance of evacuation procedures. A great deal of research led to many improvements in design, procedures and legislation. One of my close relatives was involved in the investigation: anyone who thinks that an evacuation is a time-available disembarkation with bags, would do well to read the report and see the photgraphs of the inside of the cabin.

The ultimate message is that a fire and evacuation is a time-critical life and death event. The purpose of the evacuation is to save lives not baggage and any actions that slow down or interfere with the evacuation are unacceptable. While you are dicking around with a bag even if only for seconds, someone further down the cabin could be inhaling toxic smoke. I'm astonished by some of the comments here that seem to condone this behaviour.

Apart from that little rant, a superb job by all the crew and fire services that saved many lives. Well done Speedbird.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 12:18
  #148 (permalink)  
 
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There should be no ambiguity about any personal effects in that situation, nothing is vital and can be replaced, passport is a bit of paper, mobile phone, there are millions of them, start telling people to keep them about their person and they will start transferring it when they should be getting off a burning plane, as realistically several hours with your passport, wallet etc in your pocket isn't comfortable.


Get off the plane, that is all there is to it, worst comes to the worst you get to do a Tom hanks in the airport for a few days and have a tale to tell when you get home.


I get so frustrated with other passengers with their massive carry on luggage, just check it ffs and perhaps not get up and faff about with it every fifteen minutes ? the maximum bag size should be half the size is it now, just deal with the baggage reclaim.


this does have echoes of the Manchester disaster, obviously no two incidents are exactly the same but 30 years on this resulted in a ruined plane and a few sprains and bruises by the sound of it, not 55 funerals and life changing injuries, I saw that pall of smoke when doing my paper round that morning in 85, its nice to think that this result is partly down to the lessons learnt from that incident, and some good has come from it 30 years hence, that and the performance of the industry, crew and emergency services, if not all the passengers....
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 12:34
  #149 (permalink)  
 
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You can't fix "stupid." Choose one:

1. Stuck for 36 hours without important documents, left behind when evacuating a burning aircraft. (I keep mine in a light vest that I wear, and my German wife has one of those weird little pouches hung around her neck for such items, but that might just be us. It's not so much being poised to flee impending doom with the speed of a thousand startled gazelles, just that some tea-leaf might actually steal whatever we have left in that locker, perhaps while we are sleeping or visiting the toilet.)

2. Being on a slab in the morgue, stone dead because you were stuck on a burning aircraft waiting for someone who needed to take his carry-on baggage, which included important documents.

The same sort of people who ignore the safety briefing don't bother to look for the nearest exit (as they are told to during the briefing that they have ignored), and also don't bother to look at the safety card to see which sort of exits their airplane has ... those are the same people who are going to be stood there fishing their bags out of the lockers instead of focusing on getting down the aisle and off the airplane.

I agree that these "cutesy" briefings (looking at you here, Southwest Airlines) perhaps trivialize something that is important, although the notion is that people shall pay more attention to something told to them in such a light-hearted way, even an important safety briefing.

What we need is segregated seating. One section for those of us 100% focused on surviving an emergency, another for those who shall need to get their carry-on bags, perhaps need to use their phone to record the event for posterity, or do whatever seems to be a good idea, whatever goes through their tiny, unfocused minds once they finally realize that, yes, this is an emergency and never mind what that travel agent promised them. As it is, the problem for the first group is that the second group is going to be in their way, unfair as that is.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 12:53
  #150 (permalink)  
 
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We need to differentiate between the two types of "cabin baggage". The photos I have seen tend to show the "smaller" stuff that goes at your feet, rather than the "bigger" stuff that goes into the overhead lockers.

I think we all agree that "stopping" to get stuff from an overhead locker is "not a good idea", but if it is at your feet it doesn't even take second to pick it up and take it with you.

And although I have never been in an aeroplane evacation, I can't image "every one gets up and leaves their seats" all at the same time anyway.

Blocking the aisle to rummage around the overhead locker is one thing, taking the small bag interfering with your feet is another.

My wife always flies with her handbag down there, but I can't bear to have my feet "obstructed" so my hand baggage is always in the locker.

Having been involved in four major building fire / evacuations over the years my personal advice there is to take 5 seconds to assess the situation and then move quickly. In a plane, just follow the evacuation directions instantly to the nearest available exit... fewer options available so just takes half a second to assess. which way to go.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 12:55
  #151 (permalink)  
 
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Gladrag

As a new, very young, jumbo skipper many years ago I had an engine failure about 100 kts, I completed the RTO and found for various reasons that I had to evacuate the aircraft (one of the most sobering decisions I've ever had to make) - I saw at first hand the human nature that gets exhibited in these situations ...... "if you get in front of me and my family with your baggage......" trust me !

Rgds

Last edited by Good Business Sense; 9th Sep 2015 at 13:05.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 12:56
  #152 (permalink)  
 
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I just cannot understand the stupidity of people posting on here who somehow feel that carrying bags off in a situation like this is in any way condonable.
Trossie (and others), you aren't going to solve the problem until you understand it. I don't understand it either - but I strongly suspect it's a lot more complex than people thinking that their tag-along is more important than getting the hell out of the airplane quickly. That does not mean it's condonable - and I don't think I or anyone else here has said that it is. Just that it's more complicated than you'd like to think.

All this talk of fines and prosecutions and failure to obey crew commands is utter nonsense if you don't understand why and how people behave the way they do in a full-on emergency. This industry needs some research into why people do this.

And see my comment re Asiana - where it's been suggested that PAX were instructed to take bags with them because they were obstructing the aisle.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 13:04
  #153 (permalink)  
 
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ChisseyLuke


"Listening to the ATC tape, there does appear to be a time-gap between the Speedbird stopping message, and the Mayday fire services requested message.
Did the flight crew not realise that a fire was (or was likely to have) started?
ATC appear to have despatched fire services anyway, but given this delay, and the damage already occuring to the fueselage/cabin, we're looking at few seconds before catastrophe, it seems.

In now way am I critical, but I'm just interested in this gap between announcing stop, and calling for fire service."

Following an RTO, well-trained flight crew are educated to ensure the park brake is set, the reverser(s) is/are stowed and clear handover of control is given to the captain, if the FO was flying the aircraft (unsure in this instance who's sector it was). We are then advised to take a couple of deep breaths and assess the gravity of the situation before carrying out any drills. The severity is reconsidered and then the captain makes a decision to evacuate or not.
If these vital steps are not covered, you may run the risk of evacuating an aircraft with engines running and it self-taxiing across the airfield. Not very healthy for the evacuees and other airport users.
These actions have to be done with a degree of urgency, but it takes time. I think the timescale here was nothing short of incredibly good.

No you are not critical, just not very clever.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 13:10
  #154 (permalink)  
 
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And as we are talking about evacuation and many posters stay in unfamiliar hotels, please :-

- DO check to see where your nearest fire exit is
- DO count the number of doorways between your room and the fire exit (imagine thick dense smoke and having to feel your way)
- Do use the BACK of your hand when feeling blindly for those doorways because many hotels run mains electric cables at floor level which might be exposed. The last thing you want to do is touch one with your palm because you won't be able to let go.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 13:11
  #155 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Good Business Sense View Post
Gladrag

As a new, very young, jumbo skipper many years ago I had an engine failure about 100 kts, I completed the RTO and found for various reasons that I had to evacuate the aircraft (one of the most sobering decisions I've ever had to make) - I saw at first hand the human nature that gets exhibited in these situations ...... "if you get in front of me and my family with your baggage......" trust me !

Rgds
And while you/they fiddle, Rome burns.

Just get off the aircraft.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 13:13
  #156 (permalink)  
 
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Looking at a mobile while diving

Demonstrates two things. Possession of a remarkably waterproof phone, and a touching faith in submarine network coverage.😜
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 13:24
  #157 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: USA
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Banning all carry-on is the only way to stop folks taking their bags in an emergency evac.

In a crisis, some people shut down and do nothing, others carry on as if everything is normal, and the rest treat it like the life threatening situation that it is. For many, standing and retrieving their bag is the only way they have ever exited an aircraft.

Even FAs are known to deactivate the slides when they open the doors in an emergency, because that is how they always open the door except in the training hull.

That everyone got out alive is testament to the excellent training and professionalism of the crew. Great job dealing with a very bad situation.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 13:34
  #158 (permalink)  
 
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To all the hand luggage apologists, I beg you to listen to the professionals who have posted on this site. However smart, fit and agile you think you are, if you start picking up your stuff and opening overhead lockers, others will copy you.

Do not take any hand luggage with you. No exceptions.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 13:39
  #159 (permalink)  
 
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Stopping passengers taking their bags is a matter of raising awareness beforehand, so that the majority of passengers know about it, and will not be surprised when asked to do so in a moment of extreme stress. If old Granny Stumbleshoes wants to take her knitting from the overhead locker or Mr Smartarse Executive feels his computer is more important than a person at the back of the queue, then neither of them are going to give in quietly when the cabin staff tell them to leave their stuff and get out and under those circumstances it makes sense not to argue since it will waste time. But if all passengers were made aware right from the outset that they might be required to leave everything, and the reason why, then we might at last start to make an impact on the problem. As has been said many times, you canít predict what people will do in panic, but the more familiar and consistent the message, the more likely it will be heeded. At the moment there isnít any message.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 13:43
  #160 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
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One handy tip for travelling.
Before departure scan all documents; passport, driving license, travel tickets, traveler's cheques, credit cards etc and email them to your own Gmail account.
You can then retrieve them nearly instantly anywhere in the world on any computer or smartphone.
Perfect when you lose anything through any circumstances.
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