BA 777 on fire in Las Vegas
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Baggage
I travelled on Ryanair this morning and paid special attention to the safety briefing. the actual safety briefing is helpfully uploaded to youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8TejiY7Ehg
it says there are eight emergency exits and how to identify them, It also tells you that floor lighting will help guide you to the nearest exit.
it does not tell you that you cannot take your baggage with you in the event of an emergency. For aircrew and regular travellers this goes without saying but there are a lot of people out there that take two or less flights a year and may not realise this.
in the US (I think) the weight of the over wing exit door is placarded on the door, how many people would still say they were happy to operate the overwing exit and throw the door out of the fuselage if they knew it weighed 20Kgs? At the risk of being obvious, that's the equivalent of trying to throw a fully loaded suitcase out of the door whilst sitting down.
hopefully as a result of this the regulators might force airlines to move the safety demo from the marketing department, where is currently seems to be, back to the flight operations department where it should be.
maybe if it started with. 'Please listen to this Safety demonstration, in the event of an accident it might save your life' that would be a start. however the cynic in me says that no airline marketing department is voluntarily admit that they might kill you.
it says there are eight emergency exits and how to identify them, It also tells you that floor lighting will help guide you to the nearest exit.
it does not tell you that you cannot take your baggage with you in the event of an emergency. For aircrew and regular travellers this goes without saying but there are a lot of people out there that take two or less flights a year and may not realise this.
in the US (I think) the weight of the over wing exit door is placarded on the door, how many people would still say they were happy to operate the overwing exit and throw the door out of the fuselage if they knew it weighed 20Kgs? At the risk of being obvious, that's the equivalent of trying to throw a fully loaded suitcase out of the door whilst sitting down.
hopefully as a result of this the regulators might force airlines to move the safety demo from the marketing department, where is currently seems to be, back to the flight operations department where it should be.
maybe if it started with. 'Please listen to this Safety demonstration, in the event of an accident it might save your life' that would be a start. however the cynic in me says that no airline marketing department is voluntarily admit that they might kill you.
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Where do you get anything about immigration? That article states they are "stranded" in a hotel. Some without even shoes... So guess immigration was quite good in this case. They let people with no passports into the city.
And they are hardly stranded, they will be reunited with their belongings within a day, their food is being paid for, and on their way in a day or so as BA arranges alternate flights for them.
And they are hardly stranded, they will be reunited with their belongings within a day, their food is being paid for, and on their way in a day or so as BA arranges alternate flights for them.
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Can I ask, if the aircraft was turned so that the fire was downwind of the fuselage to avoid the same issues that arose in the Manchester Fire
I read some reports that the aircraft was turned 30 offset from the centerline, if true was that a deliberate action from the pilots or was it due to controllability problems?
The captain is being hailed as hero but in fact this exact scenario is probably the most standard scenario you get in the sim. High gross weight RTO due engine fire and followup (and sometimes with subsequent evac). We do this 4 times a year, two profchecks, one for the F/O one for the capt per session.
As I popsted before, the flames and smoke were engulfing the hull and that creates the same hazards as the BA Manchester accident.
Wonder whether it was a result of (high pressure) fuel spray in the direction of the plane or a crosswind.
We are trained to consider wind direction in case of fire after a RTO and frankly it is very hard to maneuver a heavy plane on a 45m wide runway into (or away from) the wind but the pictures again show how a fire on the wing easily eats at the airplane.
On my next profcheck the picture of this burning triple will be on my mind and I will take an extra second or so to confirm the wind again after stopping.
Baggage policies
Just another thought for those criticising pax who take large amounts of luggage into the cabin. Many airlines now charge an additional fee - often substantial - for checking luggage into the hold. This system is rapidly educating customers to take as much as possible into the cabin with them free of charge. We increasingly see this as standard behaviour on all flights, regardless of the baggage policies offered by individual carriers.
If the industry is enthusiastically encouraging pax to keep luggage with them - reinforced by financial penalty for checking-in hold luggage - we cannot then complain when they take their full permitted quota into the cabin with them.
The industry must take the lead on this. It is a problem induced by the policies of airlines themselves, not customers. We can't blame a regular family for avoiding the expense of discretionary hold baggage charges. They WILL bring maximum cabin baggage instead if they can. It is just common sense.
Spot on!! Well done for pointing it out. Am not condoning taking a trolley from locker in an evacuation, that is plain mad but with regards to the general issue of overhead locker luggage you couldn't have pointed the issue out better.
Personal example: prior to start reading this post I booked a return flight for two with one of the well known "Low" (really?) cost carriers....5 days trip, would have been handy to have a case checked in but.... cost of that privilege is about half the price of tickets, result is we'll take hand luggage only making the most of no weight limitation (you guessed the carrier didn't you?).... Gone are the old days when all carriers allowed hold cases included in the cost of tickets so I totally agree with your point, it's the industry that has created the issue and it's up to the industry to sort it out, blaming irrational passengers, however condemnable their action serves no purpose, simply go back to reasonable charging for hold luggage and the problem may not be solved but surely be less of an issue? This said well done to the BA crew!
If the industry is enthusiastically encouraging pax to keep luggage with them - reinforced by financial penalty for checking-in hold luggage - we cannot then complain when they take their full permitted quota into the cabin with them.
The industry must take the lead on this. It is a problem induced by the policies of airlines themselves, not customers. We can't blame a regular family for avoiding the expense of discretionary hold baggage charges. They WILL bring maximum cabin baggage instead if they can. It is just common sense.
Spot on!! Well done for pointing it out. Am not condoning taking a trolley from locker in an evacuation, that is plain mad but with regards to the general issue of overhead locker luggage you couldn't have pointed the issue out better.
Personal example: prior to start reading this post I booked a return flight for two with one of the well known "Low" (really?) cost carriers....5 days trip, would have been handy to have a case checked in but.... cost of that privilege is about half the price of tickets, result is we'll take hand luggage only making the most of no weight limitation (you guessed the carrier didn't you?).... Gone are the old days when all carriers allowed hold cases included in the cost of tickets so I totally agree with your point, it's the industry that has created the issue and it's up to the industry to sort it out, blaming irrational passengers, however condemnable their action serves no purpose, simply go back to reasonable charging for hold luggage and the problem may not be solved but surely be less of an issue? This said well done to the BA crew!
G Y S
After stopping....can I ask why?
I will take an extra second or so to confirm the wind again after stopping.
Last edited by wiggy; 10th Sep 2015 at 14:31.
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As for recall/memory items in the QRH ...yes you're right, much reduced and rationalised over the years (and yes, in our case the move has indeed been to junk legacy procedures and align with those published by Boeing/Airbus. ). FWIW the evac checklist is now meant to be a "read and do" if circumstances permit.
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Film taken inside the aircraft by a passenger https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdKN9AehCFQ
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The Wind???
On my next profcheck the picture of this burning triple will be on my mind and I will take an extra second or so to confirm the wind again after stopping
And then what are you going to do? Take some more valuable time to move the airplane again?
Come on people. The wind in Las Vegas was nearly calm. The last wind I heard on the tower tape was 360/4. So after you verify the wind, release the brakes and turn the airplane 90 degrees to the left? Meanwhile the pax in 11A are getting their toes toasted
Wiggy the BA FBW fleet training video for an RTO with an evacuation shows the aircraft being stopped and then the nose moved through the tiller to mitigate the effects of wind.
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I will take an extra second or so to confirm the wind again after stopping.
Secondly, it depends a little bit on the failure, what type, which engine.. a correct failure identification is critical, you must take the time for that (and do it with both pilots).
And then what are you going to do? Take some more valuable time to move the airplane again?
….
The last wind I heard on the tower tape was 360/4. So after you verify the wind, release the brakes and turn the airplane 90 degrees to the left?
….
The last wind I heard on the tower tape was 360/4. So after you verify the wind, release the brakes and turn the airplane 90 degrees to the left?
Most of the time there is no room to turn on a 45m runway, and you want to be reachable for the fire trucks (which sometimes cannot leave the concrete)
Nobody gives you a guideline, it all comes to experience and for me, looking at that burning BA is a valuable addition to my experience! (which is 25+ years flying european and long haul). Next time it can be me.
It surprises me that only 4 kts crosswind has that effect on the direction of fire. Still wondering if there is something like a fuelspray directing the flames at the hull.
Last edited by golfyankeesierra; 10th Sep 2015 at 15:30.
tubby
Thanks, I'll check that out.
GYS
As I recall the Manchester report whilst there was mention of the ( detrimental) effect of crosswind there was also mention that the amount of time lost whilst the crew continued to a runway exit may also have had serious consequences. I think it would be very brave to stop and then move again just to get the fire more downwind but that's just MVHO and it's each to their own trainset...hopefully neither of us will have to put it to a practical test...
Wiggy the BA FBW fleet training video for an RTO with an evacuation shows the aircraft being stopped and then the nose moved through the tiller to mitigate the effects of wind.
GYS
As I recall the Manchester report whilst there was mention of the ( detrimental) effect of crosswind there was also mention that the amount of time lost whilst the crew continued to a runway exit may also have had serious consequences. I think it would be very brave to stop and then move again just to get the fire more downwind but that's just MVHO and it's each to their own trainset...hopefully neither of us will have to put it to a practical test...
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NTSB confirms it is investigating an "engine fire"
http://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-relea...20150909b.aspx
"The National Transportation Safety Board today launched four investigators to Las Vegas to investigate the engine fire on a British Airways 777 that occurred yesterday.
The team is being led by Senior Investigator-in-Charge Lorenda Ward and includes engine, systems and fire specialists. She may request other investigators as needed during the course of the investigation.
The airplane, bound for London, aborted its takeoff."
"The National Transportation Safety Board today launched four investigators to Las Vegas to investigate the engine fire on a British Airways 777 that occurred yesterday.
The team is being led by Senior Investigator-in-Charge Lorenda Ward and includes engine, systems and fire specialists. She may request other investigators as needed during the course of the investigation.
The airplane, bound for London, aborted its takeoff."
PPRuNe Person
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my experience! (which is 25+ years flying european and long haul)
It surprises me that only 4 kts crosswind has that effect on the direction of fire.
It surprises me that only 4 kts crosswind has that effect on the direction of fire.
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"Wind light and variable, cleared take off"
Ok so when you stop, which way to turn?
The wind given during the atc recording was north easterly 4/5 knots and it was stated in another post they may have turned 30degrees left. don't see an issue with the crew actions.
As for carry ons, there is a regulatory issue that is not being dealt with, from memory the bin in an A319 is 35kg and when I travel on a certain bag charging airline there is no way in hell that limit is being met in a large number of overhead lockers! And I almost always pay for a hold bag which was £42 last time I went to Moscow.
A large number SAFA checks are required when pax are on board to get a handle on this issue. A company cannot hide behind standard weights and it is the legal responsibility of the captain to accept the aircraft as safe for flight. If the bin limit is much higher then disregard.
Seems others have been concerned for some time.
http://airsafetygroup.org/sites/default/files/CAA2.pdf
Ok so when you stop, which way to turn?
The wind given during the atc recording was north easterly 4/5 knots and it was stated in another post they may have turned 30degrees left. don't see an issue with the crew actions.
As for carry ons, there is a regulatory issue that is not being dealt with, from memory the bin in an A319 is 35kg and when I travel on a certain bag charging airline there is no way in hell that limit is being met in a large number of overhead lockers! And I almost always pay for a hold bag which was £42 last time I went to Moscow.
A large number SAFA checks are required when pax are on board to get a handle on this issue. A company cannot hide behind standard weights and it is the legal responsibility of the captain to accept the aircraft as safe for flight. If the bin limit is much higher then disregard.
Seems others have been concerned for some time.
http://airsafetygroup.org/sites/default/files/CAA2.pdf
The wind in Manchester was light too.
Well, the aircraft involved at Manchester reached c.125kts as opposed to c.78kts and took far, far longer to stop.
I presume that had a bearing.
Well, the aircraft involved at Manchester reached c.125kts as opposed to c.78kts and took far, far longer to stop.
I presume that had a bearing.
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Wiggy, I agree absolutely.
There will be much to learn from the report, especially in terms of survivability in such a major fire and as well the handbagage issues..
And in the meantime, situational awareness remains the key for a balanced decision.
I understand one of the pilots opened the cockpit door and took a look in the cabin after which he was aware of the urgency. Now hats of for that!
There will be much to learn from the report, especially in terms of survivability in such a major fire and as well the handbagage issues..
And in the meantime, situational awareness remains the key for a balanced decision.
I understand one of the pilots opened the cockpit door and took a look in the cabin after which he was aware of the urgency. Now hats of for that!
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Originally Posted by gcal
I can honestly say that I would never consider taking my hand luggage. I have my passport and wallet with me and my shoes stay firmly on.
In an emergency I'd want to be able to travel quickly and would sort everything else out later.
In an emergency I'd want to be able to travel quickly and would sort everything else out later.
I like this suggestion too:
Final option for those that want to take their bags is to wait until EVERYONE else is off the plane before you go to the locker.
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What a great thread this is, people sitting at home with their computers discussing what they would do if the found themselves in the middle of an aircraft on fire with 90 other passengers.
Me, I know what I should do.
I'm buggered if I know what I would actually do
Me, I know what I should do.
I'm buggered if I know what I would actually do
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In the enhanced picture in this comment is there a missing fan blade in the 3 o'clock position?
Edit: No it isn't, it's just a careful coincidence of shadow relative to the blade positioning. The Daily Mail version of the picture is much clearer.
Edit: No it isn't, it's just a careful coincidence of shadow relative to the blade positioning. The Daily Mail version of the picture is much clearer.
Last edited by llondel; 10th Sep 2015 at 16:55. Reason: A closer look.