Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

BA 777 on fire in Las Vegas

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

BA 777 on fire in Las Vegas

Old 10th Sep 2015, 14:08
  #301 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 34
Baggage policies

Just another thought for those criticising pax who take large amounts of luggage into the cabin. Many airlines now charge an additional fee - often substantial - for checking luggage into the hold. This system is rapidly educating customers to take as much as possible into the cabin with them free of charge. We increasingly see this as standard behaviour on all flights, regardless of the baggage policies offered by individual carriers.

If the industry is enthusiastically encouraging pax to keep luggage with them - reinforced by financial penalty for checking-in hold luggage - we cannot then complain when they take their full permitted quota into the cabin with them.

The industry must take the lead on this. It is a problem induced by the policies of airlines themselves, not customers. We can't blame a regular family for avoiding the expense of discretionary hold baggage charges. They WILL bring maximum cabin baggage instead if they can. It is just common sense.


Spot on!! Well done for pointing it out. Am not condoning taking a trolley from locker in an evacuation, that is plain mad but with regards to the general issue of overhead locker luggage you couldn't have pointed the issue out better.
Personal example: prior to start reading this post I booked a return flight for two with one of the well known "Low" (really?) cost carriers....5 days trip, would have been handy to have a case checked in but.... cost of that privilege is about half the price of tickets, result is we'll take hand luggage only making the most of no weight limitation (you guessed the carrier didn't you?).... Gone are the old days when all carriers allowed hold cases included in the cost of tickets so I totally agree with your point, it's the industry that has created the issue and it's up to the industry to sort it out, blaming irrational passengers, however condemnable their action serves no purpose, simply go back to reasonable charging for hold luggage and the problem may not be solved but surely be less of an issue? This said well done to the BA crew!
starling60 is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2015, 14:18
  #302 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,572
G Y S

I will take an extra second or so to confirm the wind again after stopping.
After stopping....can I ask why?

Last edited by wiggy; 10th Sep 2015 at 14:31.
wiggy is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2015, 14:42
  #303 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,428
As for recall/memory items in the QRH ...yes you're right, much reduced and rationalised over the years (and yes, in our case the move has indeed been to junk legacy procedures and align with those published by Boeing/Airbus. ). FWIW the evac checklist is now meant to be a "read and do" if circumstances permit.
Thanks for the feedback on BA procedures, I appreciate it.
Airbubba is online now  
Old 10th Sep 2015, 14:43
  #304 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: In the sticks
Posts: 7,299
Film taken inside the aircraft by a passenger https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdKN9AehCFQ
LTNman is online now  
Old 10th Sep 2015, 14:53
  #305 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: JFK
Posts: 20
The Wind???

On my next profcheck the picture of this burning triple will be on my mind and I will take an extra second or so to confirm the wind again after stopping
.


And then what are you going to do? Take some more valuable time to move the airplane again?

Come on people. The wind in Las Vegas was nearly calm. The last wind I heard on the tower tape was 360/4. So after you verify the wind, release the brakes and turn the airplane 90 degrees to the left? Meanwhile the pax in 11A are getting their toes toasted
xaf2fe is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2015, 14:54
  #306 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: under the sea
Posts: 2,348
Wiggy the BA FBW fleet training video for an RTO with an evacuation shows the aircraft being stopped and then the nose moved through the tiller to mitigate the effects of wind.
tubby linton is online now  
Old 10th Sep 2015, 15:09
  #307 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: EU
Posts: 607
I will take an extra second or so to confirm the wind again after stopping.
After stopping....can I ask why?
Well, first of all, number one priority is stopping on the runway, and flying long haul, there isn't usually much left of it.
Secondly, it depends a little bit on the failure, what type, which engine.. a correct failure identification is critical, you must take the time for that (and do it with both pilots).

And then what are you going to do? Take some more valuable time to move the airplane again?
….
The last wind I heard on the tower tape was 360/4. So after you verify the wind, release the brakes and turn the airplane 90 degrees to the left?
And yes, something to consider (exactly what mr Boeing advises us to do), but it all depends on the situation.
Most of the time there is no room to turn on a 45m runway, and you want to be reachable for the fire trucks (which sometimes cannot leave the concrete)
Nobody gives you a guideline, it all comes to experience and for me, looking at that burning BA is a valuable addition to my experience! (which is 25+ years flying european and long haul). Next time it can be me.

It surprises me that only 4 kts crosswind has that effect on the direction of fire. Still wondering if there is something like a fuelspray directing the flames at the hull.

Last edited by golfyankeesierra; 10th Sep 2015 at 15:30.
golfyankeesierra is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2015, 15:19
  #308 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Yorkshire
Age: 61
Posts: 8
The wind in Manchester was light too.
CaptainX is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2015, 15:25
  #309 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,572
tubby

Wiggy the BA FBW fleet training video for an RTO with an evacuation shows the aircraft being stopped and then the nose moved through the tiller to mitigate the effects of wind.
Thanks, I'll check that out.

GYS

As I recall the Manchester report whilst there was mention of the ( detrimental) effect of crosswind there was also mention that the amount of time lost whilst the crew continued to a runway exit may also have had serious consequences. I think it would be very brave to stop and then move again just to get the fire more downwind but that's just MVHO and it's each to their own trainset...hopefully neither of us will have to put it to a practical test...
wiggy is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2015, 15:27
  #310 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: BE
Age: 59
Posts: 54
NTSB confirms it is investigating an "engine fire"

http://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-relea...20150909b.aspx

"The National Transportation Safety Board today launched four investigators to Las Vegas to investigate the engine fire on a British Airways 777 that occurred yesterday.

The team is being led by Senior Investigator-in-Charge Lorenda Ward and includes engine, systems and fire specialists. She may request other investigators as needed during the course of the investigation.

The airplane, bound for London, aborted its takeoff."
D Bru is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2015, 15:32
  #311 (permalink)  

PPRuNe Person
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: see roster
Posts: 1,263
my experience! (which is 25+ years flying european and long haul)

It surprises me that only 4 kts crosswind has that effect on the direction of fire.
I find those 2 statements incompatible.
overstress is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2015, 15:32
  #312 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: another place
Posts: 732
"Wind light and variable, cleared take off"
Ok so when you stop, which way to turn?
The wind given during the atc recording was north easterly 4/5 knots and it was stated in another post they may have turned 30degrees left. don't see an issue with the crew actions.

As for carry ons, there is a regulatory issue that is not being dealt with, from memory the bin in an A319 is 35kg and when I travel on a certain bag charging airline there is no way in hell that limit is being met in a large number of overhead lockers! And I almost always pay for a hold bag which was £42 last time I went to Moscow.

A large number SAFA checks are required when pax are on board to get a handle on this issue. A company cannot hide behind standard weights and it is the legal responsibility of the captain to accept the aircraft as safe for flight. If the bin limit is much higher then disregard.

Seems others have been concerned for some time.
http://airsafetygroup.org/sites/default/files/CAA2.pdf
Deep and fast is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2015, 15:39
  #313 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: EGMH
Posts: 207
The wind in Manchester was light too.


Well, the aircraft involved at Manchester reached c.125kts as opposed to c.78kts and took far, far longer to stop.


I presume that had a bearing.
susier is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2015, 15:42
  #314 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: EU
Posts: 607
Wiggy, I agree absolutely.
There will be much to learn from the report, especially in terms of survivability in such a major fire and as well the handbagage issues..
And in the meantime, situational awareness remains the key for a balanced decision.
I understand one of the pilots opened the cockpit door and took a look in the cabin after which he was aware of the urgency. Now hats of for that!
golfyankeesierra is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2015, 15:45
  #315 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: A little south of the "Black Sheep" brewery
Posts: 379
Originally Posted by gcal
I can honestly say that I would never consider taking my hand luggage. I have my passport and wallet with me and my shoes stay firmly on.
In an emergency I'd want to be able to travel quickly and would sort everything else out later.
gcal is the sort of fellow passenger that I would like to fly with!

I like this suggestion too:
Final option for those that want to take their bags is to wait until EVERYONE else is off the plane before you go to the locker.
However I would feel that this would be unfair on the Cabin Crew and the Captain who would have to wait for these morons before they can leave a potentially burning aircraft. But it would be a good way of isolating and thereby identifying those who should have legal action taken against them for endangering lives...
Trossie is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2015, 15:57
  #316 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: UK
Age: 81
Posts: 699
What a great thread this is, people sitting at home with their computers discussing what they would do if the found themselves in the middle of an aircraft on fire with 90 other passengers.

Me, I know what I should do.
I'm buggered if I know what I would actually do
funfly is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2015, 16:03
  #317 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: San Jose
Posts: 726
In the enhanced picture in this comment is there a missing fan blade in the 3 o'clock position?

Edit: No it isn't, it's just a careful coincidence of shadow relative to the blade positioning. The Daily Mail version of the picture is much clearer.

Last edited by llondel; 10th Sep 2015 at 16:55. Reason: A closer look.
llondel is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2015, 16:50
  #318 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: New Forest
Posts: 23
Re #257

Airbubba asked :-
At BA can any of the flight deck crew members call a rejected takeoff?
Either PH or PNH may call "Stop".
I can only recall that the general concensus concerning other crew members in the flightdeck was that they should just draw attention to any missed warning. (I can't remember any definitive answer in the Training Manual.)

Is there still a long laundry list of memory items at BA?
13 Checklists have memory items. Most of these have 1 or 2 lines
eg ABORTED ENGINE START
Fuel Control Switch ... Cutoff

There are 6 which are more complicated.
eg Windshear Go Around; Cabin Altitude & perhaps of more interest,
PASSENGER EVACUATION
- Captain's actions
Parking Brake ... Set
Fuel Control Switches (both) ... Off
Passenger Evacuation ... Initiate
----“This is an emergency. Evacuate. Evacuate. (Hazards at .... )”
---Evac Command Switch ... On
---ATC and/or Grd Crew ... Notify

For the benefit of those who are unfamiliar with Electronic Checklists and their contribution to improved flight safety, the following may be of interest. If the aircraft detects that a Warning or Caution checklist needs to be accomplished, it/they are listed (on B777: by the engine parameters on the central screen). If more than one, then in critical order.
If the checklist has memory items, they are called for and accomplished as I previously described and then PH will call (for this example) FIRE ENGINE LEFT CHECKLIST. PNH calls up the checklist on the central lower screen, which will automatically bring up the top priority checklist. The aircraft can sense which actions have been accomplished and these will be displayed in green writing. Anything in white is an action still required and will either turn green as soon as you have moved the switch or else need you to tick the box to turn it green. At the end is shown useful information (eg decreased crosswind limit; reduced landing flap).
Most importantly, at the very end, the (for this example) FIRE ENGINE LEFT CHECKLIST COMPLETED will only show highlighted when all items have been sensed or ticked off and this highlight is confirmed by both pilots.
Whip is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2015, 17:02
  #319 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Stevenage
Posts: 12
iPads & iPods first

Some people would run into a burning aircraft to save their precious iPods / Pads.
Armchair_Ace is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2015, 17:07
  #320 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: UK
Age: 79
Posts: 3,687
With reference to hats and hi-viz jackets:

A colleague of mine ended up going off the end of a Boston runway at night in a DC-10 through absolutely no fault of his own. It was winter and it was snowing so as he came out of the flightdeck having completed the shutdown checks, he quickly donned his overcoat on the way out because it was bloody cold.

He then tried to get involved in the post-evacuation procedures but no one paid him any attention.

At one point, he was chucked into the back of an ambulance whilst trying to protest that he was the captain of the aircraft and was not hurt in the slightest. The enthusiastic ambulance crew assumed that he had received a head injury and was therefore not in a logical state of mind.

The problem was that he did not have his rank bars on his overcoat nor was he wearing a hi-viz jacket so, in the dark, once he put that coat on, no one could recognise that he was the captain.

Perhaps BA have learned a good lesson that some of the unpromising hysterics on this website have yet to learn.
JW411 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.