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BA 777 on fire in Las Vegas

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BA 777 on fire in Las Vegas

Old 9th Sep 2015, 20:46
  #221 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Cambridge, England, EU
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But PAX don't train for an evacuation. Best they'll listen to the safety instructions, read the safety folder, find the nearest exit and try to remember. But they haven't done the drill in a dark cabin, half filled with smoke, flames engulfing the fuselage and people screaming and panicking to add to the stress.
Just asked one of my kids;

"You're on a plane, it's on fire, you're been yelled at to evacuate, what's the most stupid thing you could possibly imagine doing next?"

He thought for quite a long time (several seconds) and said "fiddle around with the overhead locker getting my bag out?".
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 20:57
  #222 (permalink)  
 
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Well done Captain Henkey, can't be many BOAC Hamsters left now !
How many millions of miles, countless pax, all the sim checks just for these few seconds of decision...

Last edited by OwnNav; 9th Sep 2015 at 22:26. Reason: Spellin
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 21:06
  #223 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
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Just asked one of my kids;

"You're on a plane, it's on fire, you're been yelled at to evacuate, what's the most stupid thing you could possibly imagine doing next?"

He thought for quite a long time (several seconds) and said "fiddle around with the overhead locker getting my bag out?".
Obviously. But will your son actually act accordingly if he ever should find himself in a real emergency? You don't know - and neither does he.

When I trained to deploy one of our instructors had an anec***e. I don't know if it's real or just that, but: In some US city cops where training how to disarm an attacker with a gun. They'd train 1 on 1 with one acting as the attacker, the other as the cop. After the cop disarmed "the attacker" he'd hand back the pistol and they'd have another go. In other words: He was taught to hand back the gun to the attacker - which ended up getting him killed when handing a gun back to an actual attacker.

It's anec***al but not entirely unbelievable. When in an emergency, when stressed to the max, we tend to fall back on the procedures we know, lodged in our memory and our muscles, the acts our body remembers. And when we disembark a plane - we grab our carry-ons.

When I'm seated at an overwing exit I firmly believe that I'll act as I should, should an emergency occur. But can I say for sure that I won't be trying to push the door OUT and delay an evacuation, instead of pulling it towards myself, tilt it and throw it out of the plane as I should? No. We probably all imagine ourselves as the one who's cool, calm and collected and saves the day - but until we've been there we don't know how we'll react. And to rely on the threat of prosecution to get PAX to leave their carry-ons behind is missing the point of human nature entirely.

Just saying.

Last edited by Backseat Dane; 9th Sep 2015 at 21:37.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 21:27
  #224 (permalink)  
 
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Just listen to the ATC tape at #11. Super professional. Decisive. Calm. Quick reaction by Fire trucks and successful outcome. Was it really the Skipper's last flight (or so)? Bad luck for him but good luck for everyone else.
Outstanding job by all concerned.
Very well done.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 21:28
  #225 (permalink)  
 
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Bags

IMVHO as SLF, part of this is down to the airlines themselves. Charging punters for checking bags encourages them to take as much in to the cabin as they can. It might be better to stop charging for checked bags, and impose a much tighter limit on materials permitted in the cabin (eg. a laptop bag, baby needs or medication bag), which could easily fit under a seat and not be a hold-up in an evacuation, even if grabbed. The overhead bins could then hold the IFE boxes.

Part of the checked bag issue, however, is the hassle factor in having to check bags at departure, and wait hopefully and patiently for them to emerge at the other end. Waiting 40 mins at EWR for a bag to come off an aircraft parked at the closest stand to the terminal building does not engender confidence in anything changing there, however.

Perhaps the safety demo / video should also advise passports and wallets be kept on the person, and shoes on, whilst the passenger signs are on at each end.

I do not condone any evacuating passenger taking the time to get their roll-aboard out of the overhead, but if you remove the temptation, you remove the problem.

In any event, well done to all the crew, ATC and firies. All out & OK, best possible outcome. Voices on the tape all calm & professional in what must've been a fraught period.

And I suspect Lomapaseo's comment might've been tongue-in-cheek; what a standard SLF might think.

Last edited by Taildragger67; 10th Sep 2015 at 02:07. Reason: Adding comment
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 21:37
  #226 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
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Oh, really?

I paid good money for my Apple MacBook Pro, and now you expect me to just leave it there in that overhead bin, just because someone is telling me that I have to leave the aircraft, for no obvious reason? Yes, of course I have my wallet and passport on me, but wait a minute ... where's my iPhone? And my new Hugo Boss jacket! Look, it only takes a minute or two or three for me to find my stuff and then I shall get right on with it, whatever it is my servants want me to do. (I paid good money for that ticket, so that those stewardesses, waitresses really, are working for me!)

Uh-huh ....
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 21:44
  #227 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Just watched some videos and guys over there you certainly can be proud of your airline.


Who was the other person in the cockpit?
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 21:48
  #228 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
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Three thoughts on bags:

First, returning some years ago from a long haul first class with KLM, my hold bag was overweight for the short-haul back to the UK on another carrier. The check-in lady at AMS instructed me to put lots of things in my (not to be weighed) cabin bags. I pointed out the hazard this would pose in causing burst lockers etc and she looked at me as if I was a nutter. The problem seems to begin with corporate behaviour, as this lady exemplified.

Two, we provide pilots with an error-tolerant environment, where their normal, error-prone, behaviour, will not cause catastrophe. Why do we not consider providing our untrained, frightened, passengers, with an environment in which they too can err, and try to keep their belongings with them in an extremely stressful situation?

Three, the tombstone imperative tells us that this will not change until and unless there are many deaths. Each evacuation in which passengers leave the aircraft with their belongings and without awful consequences justifies the status quo, rather than evidences the need for change.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 21:51
  #229 (permalink)  
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There is always a major difference between what a pax should do and actually does during an emergency. Same for crew by the way, if you look carefully at the Turkish A330 video of the evac in KTM you will see a large number of ( cabin ?) crew nicely together on the tarmac with their carry-ons bags at the bottom of the slides. And those guys are supposed to be trained !
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 21:58
  #230 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
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As has been stated before, everyone reacts differently whether they have listened to the safety brief or not.......Fight or Flight.......we all learn about it. I just hope that my reaction in an emergency is flight and woe betide anyone getting their luggage down from the overhead locker when I am wanting to get the hell out.

Of course I hope I never find out what my reaction would be!

It seems as though everything went pretty smoothly, although I am sure the ensuing investigation will confirm that or not. As far as I'm concerned, at this point, I hope that I carry out my duties to the level of professionalism that has been shown here by all the crew in this incident.

Regards,

320

Last edited by 320goat; 9th Sep 2015 at 22:13.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 22:00
  #231 (permalink)  
JWM
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
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The whole business of risk caused by pax grabbing cabin bags before leaving is a real issue and probably should be laid at the door of the bean counters who, as someone said, are addicted to the baggage revenue stream, despite the very real safety issues. Whatever the airline publicity may say, these bureaucrats really are NOT focused on safety as are the people who have to fly the aircraft day in day out !
The really lucky thing about this incident is that the engine exploded BEFORE the plane was in the air.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 22:14
  #232 (permalink)  
 
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Sober Lark

Who was the other person in the cockpit?
Vegas-Gatwick is a three crew trip. I'm not sure quite who you mean but I guess it was the heavy/augmented crew member. On a more positive note, the aircraft in question is one of the unbunked hulls 😆
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 22:25
  #233 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
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Captain Henkey

They don't make 'em like that any more.

Good job done by all crew, ATC and AFRS and probably PAX as well.



Misty.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 22:35
  #234 (permalink)  
 
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Nice to see some factual reporting without the usual roll out of the so called 'experts' on TV.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 22:39
  #235 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
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IMVHO as SLF, part of this is down to the airlines themselves. Charging punters for checking bags encourages them to take as much in to the cabin as they can. It might be better to stop charging for checked bags, and impose a much tighter limit on materials permitted in the cabin (eg. a laptop bag, baby needs or medication bag), which could easily fit under a seat and not be a hold-up in an evacuation, even if grabbed. The overhead bins could then hold the IFE boxes.

Part of the checked bag issue, however, is the hassle factor in having to check bags at departure, and wait hopefully and patiently for them to emerge at the other end. Waiting 40 mins at EWR for a bag to come off an aircraft parked at the closest stand to the terminal building does not engender confidence in anything changing there, however.
Another motivation for the punters to carry on as much as possible is the tendency, to put it mildly, for items in checked luggage to go missing.

Now I am sure that everyone who handles the checked bag is of the utmost probity, but with the security services having free access to the bags...

I have not had anything lifted from checked bags, but I have spoken with many who have. Are all their claims accurate? Not sure but I see no reason not to believe them. Perhaps others could lend some insight into whether this is a real problem or not.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 23:13
  #236 (permalink)  
 
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My own profession was medical, though an amateur interest in flying. I found over the years that though we docs are frequently a rude and condescending lot, when there is a serious emergency, or perhaps a surgical case goes unexpectedly difficult, the professional in us takes over. A calm demeanor, and willingness to do what is necessary in cooperation with everyone else involved usually leads to the best outcome.

I'm pleased to see that you professional pilot folks have that same sort of ingrained mindset. It serves you well when it's needed, and the rest of us also.

Isn't that the true definition of "professional" in whatever field of endeavor?
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 23:27
  #237 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks Megaton. I suppose it was the media concentrating on just one person that got to me - not to detract from that person whatsoever, but it was a team effort from all employees on that aircraft and boy what a 'team'. I sincerely hope they will all be recognised as such in the days to come.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 23:56
  #238 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
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The still photograph in post #3 and the video in #10 both appear to show the main seat of the fire as being on the ground between the port engine and the fuselage. Notice that the fire engines appear to direct their first spaays onto the ground, rather than onto the wing or engine - they are only attacked later. This suggests that whatever emerged from the side of the engine ruptured fuel pipework or penetrated a tank. Since later pictures do not show any obvious outflow of fuel, it seems likely that thw wing tank is intact and the fuel was escaping from pipework downstream from an operating shutoff valve.

Perhaps if the failure had occurred a few seconds later, after V1, the damage would have been less, withe fire extinguishing itself in the air through lack of fuel.
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Old 10th Sep 2015, 00:13
  #239 (permalink)  
 
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quite a few images here, cant figure if it has been posted yet..

Images of British Airways jet that caught fire in Vegas seems to show engine EXPLODED | Daily Mail Online

Pilot makes quite the fashion statement?!?!
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Old 10th Sep 2015, 00:32
  #240 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
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You guys have no idea how dangerous taking your carry-on bag with you on a slide is.

You yourself might be severely injured or, worse yet, the person sliding down right after you might be severely injured because the bag's not been out of the way in time.

Imagine a distressed passenger stumbling towards the door with a bag amid the chaos, accidentally hitting a small child, an elderly person or ANY person and they slide down head-first and break their neck or even die.

I totally agree with those who suggest some sort of criminal liability imposed upon those who take their carry-on items with them during an evacuation.
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