Flaperon washes up on Reunion Island
Re the claim posted by jcjeant:
The article refers to a Spiegel story and really has two elements:
MH370: Neue Simulationen stellen Suchstrategie infrage - SPIEGEL ONLINE
The first is the Helmholtz current study.
The second, not noted in the English language writeup, claims that two ocean biologists have identified several of the barnacle species on the debris from photographs. They have previously shown that barnacle species habitat is partitioned by regional climate conditions.
However, their requests for access to some of the specimens for genetic analysis has thus far been ignored.
The article refers to a Spiegel story and really has two elements:
MH370: Neue Simulationen stellen Suchstrategie infrage - SPIEGEL ONLINE
The first is the Helmholtz current study.
The second, not noted in the English language writeup, claims that two ocean biologists have identified several of the barnacle species on the debris from photographs. They have previously shown that barnacle species habitat is partitioned by regional climate conditions.
However, their requests for access to some of the specimens for genetic analysis has thus far been ignored.
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phylosocopter:
I suspect that as it drifts into water of varying density (warmer, cooler, salt content...) this will affect its buoyancy.
an object without any active buoyancy control will either float or sink. It will not remain suspended mid depth.
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Barit1
I suspect that as it drifts into water of varying density (warmer, cooler, salt content...) this will affect its buoyancy.
That only works with objects that are as compressable as water (or less). Many such objects exist, they are almost all made almost entierly of water! A closed cell composite will be many times more compressable than water and will increase in relitive density as it sinks. yes its buoyancy will change in tempature salinity if it is buoyant. Once it starts to sink it will go to the bottom increasing in relitive density as it goes. =
I suspect that as it drifts into water of varying density (warmer, cooler, salt content...) this will affect its buoyancy.
That only works with objects that are as compressable as water (or less). Many such objects exist, they are almost all made almost entierly of water! A closed cell composite will be many times more compressable than water and will increase in relitive density as it sinks. yes its buoyancy will change in tempature salinity if it is buoyant. Once it starts to sink it will go to the bottom increasing in relitive density as it goes. =
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Hi,
French justice (for it is a judicial inquiry that is made in Toulouse .. no investigation by BEA) can use only official experts recognized by the judiciary system
I don't think the German experts are fit for that .. sadly
They have previously shown that barnacle species habitat is partitioned by regional climate conditions.
However, their requests for access to some of the specimens for genetic analysis has thus far been ignored.
However, their requests for access to some of the specimens for genetic analysis has thus far been ignored.
I don't think the German experts are fit for that .. sadly
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Dead end?
(CNN)Investigators may have hit a dead end in their quest to say with certainty whether a piece of airplane debris found in the Indian Ocean comes from a Malaysian passenger jet that disappeared mysteriously in 2014.
...
Now comes word that a Spanish company has told French investigators that it cannot tell with certainty from consulting its records whether the flaperon found on Reunion Island came from MH370, a French source close to the investigation told CNN. The flaperon is from a Boeing 777 -- and MH370 was a Boeing 777, the only one in the world that's unaccounted for -- but the company can't say with absolute certainty that the flaperon found on Reunion Island comes from the missing plane, the source said.
...
Now comes word that a Spanish company has told French investigators that it cannot tell with certainty from consulting its records whether the flaperon found on Reunion Island came from MH370, a French source close to the investigation told CNN. The flaperon is from a Boeing 777 -- and MH370 was a Boeing 777, the only one in the world that's unaccounted for -- but the company can't say with absolute certainty that the flaperon found on Reunion Island comes from the missing plane, the source said.
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Not shooting the messenger here but …... Why would the manufacturer of a part know which specific aeroplane any particular part was fitted to? Now the manufacturer of the aeroplane should know all the specific parts used to build a particular aeroplane, and the maintenance documentation should show all changes to the as built state. So how and why would the part manufacturer know – or care? What am I missing here?
Regards,
Bash.
Regards,
Bash.
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Traceability is an intrinsic part of aircraft maintenance. A large component such as the flapperon should be easily traceable. For your information, all components from split pins to the largest components can be traced and should be recorded by batch number and also approved with the relevant EASA Form 1 FAA 8320 attached before any component is fitted. If these forms are not present or there is no way to trace the part then it is not fitted.
Traceability is an intrinsic part of aircraft maintenance. A large component such as the flapperon should be easily traceable. For your information, all components from split pins to the largest components can be traced and should be recorded by batch number and also approved with the relevant EASA Form 1 FAA 8320 attached before any component is fitted.
Yes, the provenance of a part that's about to be fitted to an aircraft should be known, by either a serial number or by tracing consumables or AGS to a specific batch. If the aircraft is involved in an accident or incident, the history of any relevant components is known.
But the problem investigators are faced with here is the other way round. Given a piece part that has come from the flaperon, that has in turn come from an unknown aircraft, the issue is whether any identifying feature(s) can be found that would allow correlation with 9M-MRO's maintenance or build records.
Good luck finding a serial number on your split-pin.
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That I do know. I was only answering the previous question and giving Hamble a rough guide to how things operate in this world. As we all know this is a unique circumstance. I'm pretty sure though that they will identify this component. It's certainly large enough to be traceable.
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Tonkaplonka
Thanks for that – you confirm my understanding. Accordingly, my question still stands. To re-state – why are the French investigators asking the manufacturer of the flaperon if a particular flaperon was fitted to MH370 at the time the aeroplane went missing?
As you point out, the (operator ?) records should detail the serial number of the flaperon assembly fitted to the aeroplane. Apparently the assembly data plate is not attached to the assembly under investigation. Accordingly, the assembly serial number – and any component replacements, can be read from the (operator ?) records. That information may tally with the records of the manufacturer – or not – depending upon the quality of the records. In all of this I cannot see how the flaperon manufacturer can be expected to confirm that the subject flaperon was fitted to MH370 at the time it went missing. Of course they may be able to confirm that their data differs from that of the (operator ?) records.
Regards,
Bash.
Thanks for that – you confirm my understanding. Accordingly, my question still stands. To re-state – why are the French investigators asking the manufacturer of the flaperon if a particular flaperon was fitted to MH370 at the time the aeroplane went missing?
As you point out, the (operator ?) records should detail the serial number of the flaperon assembly fitted to the aeroplane. Apparently the assembly data plate is not attached to the assembly under investigation. Accordingly, the assembly serial number – and any component replacements, can be read from the (operator ?) records. That information may tally with the records of the manufacturer – or not – depending upon the quality of the records. In all of this I cannot see how the flaperon manufacturer can be expected to confirm that the subject flaperon was fitted to MH370 at the time it went missing. Of course they may be able to confirm that their data differs from that of the (operator ?) records.
Regards,
Bash.
Malaysian know the serial number of the corresponding flaperon assembly that was fitted to 9M-MRO when it went down. In all probability it's the one that the aircraft was delivered with, but if it has been changed at any point then details will be in the aircraft's maintenance records.
If the flaperon had been washed up with its serial number plate intact, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
But of course it wasn't, so the investigators need to ask EADS-CASA if its build records for flaperon serial number known to be fitted to 9M-MRO can be used to positively ID any of its component parts. If that proves to be feasible, the investigators would in all likelihood disassemble the flaperon to establish whether it does or doesn't contain component parts that can be tied to the one that went down with the aircraft.
So, in effect, the investigators are asking the flaperon manufacturer for evidence that would show, albeit indirectly, whether the one washed up belongs to MH370.
If the flaperon had been washed up with its serial number plate intact, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Whilst I understand that crash forces are chaotic and hydraulic pressures could have been extremely high I am still maddended that the serial plate and its rivets(?) were not found fixed to the flaperon.
Mickjoebill
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Riveted data/serial number plate?
"A news report where a specialist examines a similar 777 flaperon shows that the serial plate is riveted to the flaperon, one rivet in each corner."
Can you cite reference to this news report?
.
Can you cite reference to this news report?
.
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Can you cite reference to this news report?
What is an airplane's flaperon? - CNN Video
The close-up of the data plate is around 1:05.
Though the expert in that video says that the plate is glued on (not riveted), so it's not that surprising that it's no longer there after a year of soaking in the ocean.
It has a hole in each corner with a bulge that looks like a rivet.(my interpretation)
However, this specialist says it is held on by adhesive.
http://youtu.be/2KlTuhHGq44
Edit: so if it is held on by adhesive I guess the reason for the holes in the plate is that it comes from stock where holes are predrilled... And the bulges impersonating rivets are formed by excess adhesive oozing out the holes?
Sorry for that excursion....
Mickjoebill
Last edited by mickjoebill; 1st Sep 2015 at 01:29.
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Here is what the plate looks like from a screenshot of the video above. The plate has holes, but I do not see any rivets.
Probably a generic blank plate used on many parts for identification. On that piece, rivets would have to be blind rivets, and they would be obvious.
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@Lemain;
Not as easy as that; either one or both of the images has been "doctored" to promote whatever was being promoted.
The "adhesive" method is most likely to be what was used, and without testing the bond in sea water for 16 months, that statement could also be ruled out of order.
Let's be a little more positive and accept that a flaperon has been found, and at this time concede that there is possibly some doubt as to its origin, but proceed positively. A kick in the back-side may come our way in the future, but at least we can't be accused of just being "nay sayers".
Well spotted but I think it IS just the lighting.
The "adhesive" method is most likely to be what was used, and without testing the bond in sea water for 16 months, that statement could also be ruled out of order.
Let's be a little more positive and accept that a flaperon has been found, and at this time concede that there is possibly some doubt as to its origin, but proceed positively. A kick in the back-side may come our way in the future, but at least we can't be accused of just being "nay sayers".
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Please list the incidents where a Boeing 777 is reported to have lost (shed) ANY empennage, flaps, slats, spoilers, ailerons, landing gear doors, etc. Thank you. I await your edified and informed response.
Rotate on this!
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I am still maddended that the serial plate and its rivets(?) were not found fixed to the flaperon
