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Flaperon washes up on Reunion Island

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Flaperon washes up on Reunion Island

Old 31st Jul 2015, 21:04
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Flaperon washes up on Reunion Island

Mr. Cheeseflyer you might want to review this one: http://www.courthousenews.com/2015/07/10/boeing-keeps-suits-over-asiana-crash-in-federal.htm
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Old 31st Jul 2015, 21:36
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From the French paper 'Libération' 31/07/2015:
"L’enquête dépend de la justice française, plus particulièrement du pôle antiterroriste, et non du Bureau d’enquêtes et d’analyses (BEA)(...) C’est la présence de quatre ressortissants français à bord du vol MH370 et «la présomption de destruction intentionnelle de l’avion» qui impliquent le pôle antiterroriste."

In other words... not only are the French handling this part of the investigation , it's the terrorist squad, not the BEA, who will be in charge- because of the presence of four French passengers and the presumption that the destruction of the plane was intentional.
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Old 31st Jul 2015, 22:01
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If you do not think maritime jurisdiction might will apply, read this...

Seventh Circuit Finds Admiralty Jurisdiction in Asiana Airlines Lawsuits | Alerts & Newsletters | Holland & Knight

Why is everything in life complicated by lawyers??????
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Old 31st Jul 2015, 22:49
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Flaperon going back to Boeing as well?

Hopefully there will be Boeing Commercial Airplane guys present at Toulouse and Malaysian DGAC .

Though initially wondered if flaperon will also go back to Renton Field to be analyzed by the manufacturers themselves and possibly some NTSB investigators input (yes I know its Malaysian registered a/c)


Cheers
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Old 31st Jul 2015, 23:34
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"This was the most logical location based on satellite pings (which was the ONLY piece of hard data related to the fate of MH370 at that time). The search area determination was not based on the pilot suicide theory.

Also, pilot suicide is the 2nd frequent cause of crashes during cruise flight (second only to terrorism), so a pilot suicide hypothesis isn't exactly "baseless". So based on past experience, a deliberate crash (either by suicide or terrorism) must be considered no less likely than a mechanical failure/fire/other technical cause."

I don't suggest it shouldn't be searched there, I would search there too but I would not search only there, if the search was spread throughout the 7th arc there would be a higher chance of spotting debris or catching something with sonar.

Pilot suicide is baseless in this case because none of the pilots had any suicidal inclinations (especially the captain as the main culprit) and because suicide in the current search area makes no sense at all whatever scenario you make.
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Old 31st Jul 2015, 23:43
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Originally Posted by onetrack
Well, despite some experts claiming it would be impossible to retrace the path taken by the flaperon, the UWA seem to be quite confident that they can do just that, and actually work back to the most likely crash area.
Its interesting that some of the drift maps show the possible source around Exmouth off the North West coast of Australia, which was where the black box pings were supposedly picked up for some time.



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Old 1st Aug 2015, 00:11
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I have no problem with the capabilities of the French to investigate air crashes, but I do have a concern about their willingness to do a thorough investigation in the face of any political pressures that may be brought to bear by a foreign government (that of Malaysia, for example).

I ponder this because this is such a murky event and I strongly suspect there might be considerable motivation by some in the Malaysian government to keep as much of this in the dark as possible. On the other side of the coin, I suspect the Chinese government would really like to see as much information come to light as possible. After all, they lost the greatest number of citizens in the accident. The Australians also would like to see the accident fully investigated and reesolved.

The French BEA seem to have done a reasonable job with AF447, but investigation of the Tu-144 crash at the Paris Air Show was controversial because of political pressure brought to bear by the Soviet Union to minimise damage to the reputation of the aircraft itself and to find a cause which was acceptable to the French, the Soviets, and the rest of the world in general. A "tainted" investigation is as bad as no investigation at all.

I also assume that, in the event of major sections of the airframe eventually being recovered, these would also have to be handed over to the French for analysis. The cost of transporting these items from the recovery position (i.e. Indian Ocean) to France would be fairly considerable. Would the French have to bear these costs as well? Just who is going to pay for whatever work has to be done from here on until the matter is finally laid to rest, in whatever state it is at the time?

I am also assuming (optimistically, perhaps) the BEA will be asking Boeing for assistance, as Boeing have a considerable amount of skin in this game.

The investigation has to be done, but it also has to be seen to be done.

Last edited by criticalmass; 1st Aug 2015 at 00:25.
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Old 1st Aug 2015, 00:44
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I am also assuming (optimistically, perhaps) the BEA will be asking Boeing for assistance, as Boeing have a considerable amount of skin in this game.
Boeing indicates they will be sending a technical team to France to study plane debris: https://uk.news.yahoo.com/boeing-stu...7.html#FWlDJiH

Not exactly certain when the Boeing team is leaving. I've scoured various web articles to no avail.

Last edited by crHedBngr; 1st Aug 2015 at 01:24.
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Old 1st Aug 2015, 01:00
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Originally Posted by gmorton
From the French paper 'Libération' 31/07/2015:
"L’enquête dépend de la justice française, plus particulièrement du pôle antiterroriste, et non du Bureau d’enquêtes et d’analyses (BEA)(...) C’est la présence de quatre ressortissants français à bord du vol MH370 et «la présomption de destruction intentionnelle de l’avion» qui impliquent le pôle antiterroriste."

In other words... not only are the French handling this part of the investigation , it's the terrorist squad, not the BEA, who will be in charge- because of the presence of four French passengers and the presumption that the destruction of the plane was intentional.
Well, given that we now know the aircraft turned around, skirted around radar, and flew 7 hours into the Indian Ocean, it's not unreasonable to assume that this was a deliberate act.
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Old 1st Aug 2015, 01:05
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The answer is absolutely not. An aircraft impacting the water is no more a "vessel" under maritime law than a boat lifted out of the water by a cyclone or tornado becomes an aircraft . . .
WillFlyForCheese, under U.S. admiralty law, a seaplane is a vessel, and a seaplane retrieved from the open sea, mid-Atlantic, by a trans-oceanic liner and brought to England was a 'vessel' subject to admiralty law.

A crashed plane, at the bottom of the sea, is subject to admiralty law.

INTERNATIONAL AIRCRAFT RECOVERY, L.L.C., a Nevada Limited Liability Company, Plaintiff-Counter-Defendant-Appellee,

versus

THE UNIDENTIFIED, WRECKED AND ABANDONED AIRCRAFT, her armament, apparel, and cargo located within one marine league of a point located at 25-00043'34" N Latitude and 80-2'8" W Longitude,

Defendant,

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
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Old 1st Aug 2015, 01:10
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Folks, the French will do a first-rate job, with the assistance of the Boeing experts. All they will be doing is identifying the aircraft part.

Who quibbles about the French work on AF447?
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Old 1st Aug 2015, 01:37
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Suicide frequently isn't a rational act and the signs that someone is going to commit suicide are often missed or not understood. At the moment pilot suicide is the most plausible explanation for the disappearance but we may never know the reason why.
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Old 1st Aug 2015, 01:58
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I may have missed it, but has there been any news of an organised, official search long the coast in the area where the debris was found, or is it being left to beach-combers?
And what about a search along the opposite coast on Madagascar.
Again, I may have missed it.
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Old 1st Aug 2015, 02:01
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There was an earlier post yesterday about a helicopter search being disrupted by a nearby volcano.

MH370 search: Volcano erupts on Reunion island where plane wreckage was discovered - Mirror Online
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Old 1st Aug 2015, 02:20
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Suicide is most often neither rational not predictable. If it was we as a society would be better at preventing it.

So the argument that it couldn't be suicide because there is no rational explanation is a non sequitur. The argument is intrinsically flawed.

It's a bit like having an error in some software code causing a program to execute incorrectly, and then saying there couldn't be an error because the program wasn't designed d to execute that way.

Thing of a person contemplating suicide as analogous to a failure mode in some equipment. If there is a failure mode, all bets are off.

How was GermanWings rational?

To paraphrase Sherlock, when the other explanations are inplausible, the remaining explanation becomes the most likely.

Last edited by slats11; 1st Aug 2015 at 02:24. Reason: Typo
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Old 1st Aug 2015, 02:25
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Ian w,

Agreed the a/c would fly a phugoid profile. As the a/c was trimmed for high speed cruise 280kts; once the engines failed, first one and then 7 minutes later the other the loss of pitch-power component would I guess have the a/c trimmed speed up to perhaps 350kts.

So it's going to hit the sea hard and fast, and in a steep spiral.

As for the route after the event, to me it seems completely random, with the a/c flying a phugoid with autopilot out. If you wanted to make the plane disappear I wouldn't choose this route. I would have expected 3 different air forces to have intercepted me.
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Old 1st Aug 2015, 02:48
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Birdspeed said:


Ian w,

Agreed the a/c would fly a phugoid profile. As the a/c was trimmed for high speed cruise 280kts; once the engines failed, first one and then 7 minutes later the other the loss of pitch-power component would I guess have the a/c trimmed speed up to perhaps 350kts.

So it's going to hit the sea hard and fast, and in a steep spiral.

As for the route after the event, to me it seems completely random, with the a/c flying a phugoid with autopilot out. If you wanted to make the plane disappear I wouldn't choose this route. I would have expected 3 different air forces to have intercepted me.


Is the early route with the multiple doglegs really firmly established?
The evidence is pretty much all held by the various national governments, none of whom seem especially fond of external scrutiny.
This all happened in the dead of the night, in airspace that was free from any plausible threat. It is convenient for everyone to claim the aircraft only skirted their airspace, so we construct a route that fits. Can we have confidence that that route is actually true?
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Old 1st Aug 2015, 03:05
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*If you wanted to make the plane disappear I wouldn't choose this route. I would have expected 3 different air forces to have intercepted me.*

In this case, the person who was most likely flying 9MMRO was probably very familiar with the regional AD.

That is why flying back across the Malaysian Peninsula would have been seen as risk free. This person (who was most likely flying the plane) had once been a Malaysian AF pilot himself so he would have been in a position to know what the Malaysian AF response would be (none.) He would have been correct in assuming that there was no threat from the Malaysian AF.

The flight skirted Thai airspace, so there was no threat there. It is clear that 9MMRO carefully stayed out of Indonesian airspace, so there was no threat there either.

It appears to have been a well planned and well executed flight path..
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Old 1st Aug 2015, 03:59
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"Well Planned? For what?"

"Gaud", as is universally proclaimed...

Look back at the thousands of posts on this subject to get multiple realities...

Posting information, site data, AC Data, etc., is a valuable aspect of this site.

Speculation of the most non-data-driven sense is just out of the spectrum for aviation professionals. Postings which dribble into the realm of ...well, bull...are not why aviation professionals gather and share their knowledge and experience.

The best of PPRUNAE IS: Members provide real data, skeptical analysis of data, sources on AC problems, intelligent discourse, real time perspective and analysis, pilots,flying the critters...a n d ...the real pros have Immediate remarkable compassion for the souls... Lost or missing...

That final trait is one we all should put on the mirror of our own reality especially with regards to this event.
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Old 1st Aug 2015, 04:25
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Phugoid down to the ocean surface ?

We must remember that the 777 is a Fly By Wire aircraft - even with the Autopilot off. There is also a ram-air turbine after the batteries fail - which they wouldn't in a descent from 35K or so (Boeing had to consider a dual engine failure - volcanic ash, fuel starvation, and such ).
The Fly By Wire computer would maintain a speed above stall speed for whatever the configuration was and a fairly constant descent rate of maybe 800-1200 feet per minute - even hands off! Also, the bank angle could be anything - maybe even level. Therefore a rough ditching (somewhat nose up, wings somewhat level) attitude is even possible.
There are many possibilities still - including something like the Helios slow decompression flight with the later turns being accomplished by someone other than the flight crew - or any kind of "deliberate action".
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