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High winds at Schipol. What a landing!

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High winds at Schipol. What a landing!

Old 27th Jul 2015, 17:56
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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It scares me how casual some people are about landing in conditions such as the KLM.

Youtube is chocked full of HD spotters videos of airliners flying approaches in questionable conditions and reading Aviation Herald is a reminder of how frequently windshear and strong gusty crosswinds contribute to bent planes, blown tires and runway excursions.

That was a pretty ragged approach.
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Old 27th Jul 2015, 18:58
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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^^^ what he said.

This doesn't look like even 10 degs of bank. Why are some of you thinking this wasn't stabile?

Looks perfectly alright for the conditions to me.
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Old 27th Jul 2015, 19:27
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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As I said on a previous reply, a FBW aircraft has a different technique when hand flying and when hand flying in crosswind conditions. On the B737 for example, you can feel the aircraft and everything it's doing. Moving the stick a lot at slow speed in bumpy conditions won't change things much..... you are pretty much still in control of the aircraft. But, on an A320.... different story. She drops a wing and you push the stick the other way. Then she starts turning the other way if you are not quick enough to stop that from happening. In other words, in turbulent conditions on approach you can very quickly get in to a rolling motion which you will only make worse the more you try to fly the airplane like a conventional airplane. The answer? Let go of the stick!!!! That's right. Immediately the airplane stops rolling and starts flying straight. So little movement is best.
On the A330, I used to let the autopilot fly the airplane down to about 300' before disconnecting. The autopilot is fantastic on that airplane! A copilot was making an approach in bumpy and crosswind conditions one day and he disconnected the autopilot about 6 miles out and hand flew the approach. I suggested he reconnect the autopilot and let it do the job. He continued hand flying and fought the airplane the whole way while I jumped nervously in my seat. After we landed and slowed down, he said next time he will use the autopilot!!
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Old 27th Jul 2015, 19:38
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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At the previous mob I worked with, it's a FAIL if it was a sim proficiency check with landing in this fashion. The teledyne record will be replayed at your debriefing as to why you failed.
Why? What parameters were breached? I am not questioning just want to find out more.
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Old 27th Jul 2015, 19:53
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Nice KLM landing but nothing special neither deserving of a PPRuNe Thread,,,pretty normal regarding the WX in Europe nowadays.
You should come to Funchal to see out-of-the-ordinary...This FIN 321 explains you why...

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Old 27th Jul 2015, 20:04
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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that's a proper wing drop:
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Old 27th Jul 2015, 20:13
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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On the A330, I used to let the autopilot fly the airplane down to about 300' before disconnecting. The autopilot is fantastic on that airplane! A copilot was making an approach in bumpy and crosswind conditions one day and he disconnected the autopilot about 6 miles out and hand flew the approach. I suggested he reconnect the autopilot and let it do the job. He continued hand flying and fought the airplane the whole way while I jumped nervously in my seat. After we landed and slowed down, he said next time he will use the autopilot!!

This is a slight thread creep: and I suggest we've sorted out the merits of the KLM 'good job done' and agree to disagree if we have to.
The statement above however invites a discussion, and it might be type specific. At AMS some years ago there was a runway excursion in a B757. OK, the report calculated that the X-wind which hit the a/c was much more than ATC was giving. I can't remember whether it was decided the a/c was controllable or not. It may have been outside 'demonstrated limits' but that's not a absolute limit. One main criticism was that PF left the A/P engaged until a low height and then had too short a time to "get used to the conditions and the a/c's behaviour". For a direct control B757 I would agree with that. For an A330 I defer to the more experienced PF's. However, back to my previous comment about 'experience = the number of times you have to solve a problem', it was sad to come across this attitude from low time B757 F/O's. When asked "which sector you'd like?" the more adventurous/confident ones chose the 'sportive weather', only then to leave the A/P in CMD until DA + 100'. Did this enhance their experience? Not much.
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Old 27th Jul 2015, 20:14
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Quote:
At the previous mob I worked with, it's a FAIL if it was a sim proficiency check with landing in this fashion. The teledyne record will be replayed at your debriefing as to why you failed.
Why? What parameters were breached? I am not questioning just want to find out more.
1) more than 5 degrees of bank below 100ft RA.

2) downwind gear contact ground at touchdown first.

3) rapid alternating wheel and rudder inputs ( hard to see in the video, but in the sim teledyne display, the PIOs would come out exactly as that )

Many of the sim checkers have actually never physically flown the B777, so they just depend on the teledyne or their " own judgement " to FAIL you if you pull off a landing like that. They have no real world experience flying an aircraft with triple wheel bogie. So they only trust the " sim " sensation... In a crosswind landing without a full decrab, the three wheel bogie gives a funny twisty sensation and those blokes think that you have broken a leg!
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Old 27th Jul 2015, 20:20
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Not sure what a stabilised approach would have looked like in these conditions. This one gets progressively more interesting in the last few seconds before touchdown! Here's another video – the Boeing 777 under discussion is at 2:12 onwards:

Last edited by OldLurker; 28th Jul 2015 at 08:01. Reason: Correct link
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Old 27th Jul 2015, 20:50
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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People are still asking if this B777 was a stabilised approach. I've looked at a video from another angle. Given that the conditions were turbulent it would never be calm and steady. Were the criteria met at 500'? It looked like yes. Were they maintained down to 100'? It looked like a handful, but broadly yes. From the other angle the wing drop looked like it occurred at a height where the downwind rudder might have been applied and the into wind aileron over applied and then quickly corrected. This could have been pilot induced or it could have been a sudden decrease in X-wind as the de-crab was applied. Either way the wing drop was corrected and a controlled landing was made. The a/c didn't seem to rock & roll, nor bounce from mains to nose gear and back again. From videos of many other landings done in that period it seems mission accomplished in an acceptable manner. Debrief in the pub, not CP's office. Perhaps any guys & galls up front at the time on that afternoon can enlighten us. I'm happy to have been an armchair pilot on that day. Nuff grey hairs.
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Old 27th Jul 2015, 21:04
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That looked reasonable to me in gusty weather. It’s not the absolute crosswind component that causes issues, it’s the variation. If that was on 27 with the wind from the right, then the wind is gusting off the runway.

I have yet to fly in a simulator that accurately reproduced the sort of conditions you get above. “Grading” people as Kilda says on sim replay is ridiculous: basic technique is all you can judge. OK, I only have about 14,000 hours on the 777 so am not in a position to comment...
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Old 27th Jul 2015, 21:42
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FullWings That looked reasonable to me in gusty weather. It’s not the absolute crosswind component that causes issues, it’s the variation. If that was on 27 with the wind from the right, then the wind is gusting off the runway.

I have yet to fly in a simulator that accurately reproduced the sort of conditions you get above. “Grading” people as Kilda says on sim replay is ridiculous: basic technique is all you can judge. OK, I only have about 14,000 hours on the 777 so am not in a position to comment...
I think Kilda was referring to a case of a failure on a proficiency check in KAL by an alteon checker on someone who pulled off a gusty crosswind landing in an almost similar situation but with no such bank or downwind gear touchdown. The only fault was a residual crab angle resulting in the " twisty sensation " perculiar to the t7. The alteon checker put down that as a " hard landing ".

Now in those days without the teledyne, the sim gives a " crash " signal if any of the parameters are exceeded ( bank angle, over G touchdown, drift angle, etc ). None of those happened and no " crash " manifested on the sim screen. The alteon checker maintained the " fail " because it is " HIS DECISION, PERIOD " . His " JUDGEMENT ".

Mind you, the other alteon instructors who came to know about it thought it was ludicruous, but Alteon as a company had to support that decision. It was a political decision. Many Korean pilots were failed during that year, and the Korean pilots raised hell at training meetings...the alteon instructors were told to fail a couple expats as well ( should a good situation and a weak link present ). It was to appease the Koreans.

Two expats were failed in quick succession. One of them was in the situation above. The other was failed because of a momentary " sink rate " exceedence in final approach.

I spoke to a few alteon instructors, they were disgusted. 2 left alteon korea shortly after, not wanting to be associated with that kind of farce. Hard to take but sometimes business decision trumps everything else.

BTW, that alteon checker never flew a t7. He was 757 driver hauled up well beyond his station. " nuff said!
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Old 28th Jul 2015, 05:29
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Good landing Good Jet Tough Conditions No APC/PIO evident

Good landing. Very very good jet. Tough Conditions. No APC/PIO was obvious or evident. From control surface positions, rates, and phase angle, it appears the late flare wing drop was probably both gust and momentary lateral vector shear drift induced. That happens. Been there done that in similar or worse conditions, and occasionally even with one shut down for testing. This jet has most excellent control capability, arguably the best in the industry, and can handle it. Good preparation and training too, and perhaps lots of practical experience also was evident. Nice job to the crew.
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Old 28th Jul 2015, 06:31
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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7478ti---after 8 years flying the 777, 8 years on the queen 744 and seeing plenty of PIO in conditions like that I don't agree with you. I'd be surprised if some of that wobbling wasn't from PIO. The Ailerons on the mighty triple are quite sensitive and easy to over control causing PIO. Been there in those weather situations more than once and have the Tee shirt to prove it...

Still much prefer it over the A330......
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Old 28th Jul 2015, 06:38
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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There's only one thing for it .... when the wind gets above 5 kts we ground all aircraft !!
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Old 28th Jul 2015, 07:00
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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I just watched a 10 min YouTube of Aircraft landing on 27 including the KLM 777.

The 777 wobbles were partly caused by PIO ( IMHO ), you can actually see the left outboard aileron move full up a couple of times and also see the right inboard aileron rapidly moving up and down.....

I still think they did a good job though.

Last edited by ACMS; 28th Jul 2015 at 07:16.
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Old 28th Jul 2015, 09:19
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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In the context of the other landings in that 10 minute clip, it was one of the least 'stable' but it's unfair to judge the pilot's competency when you have no access to the instantaneous wind readouts.

Some of the approaches, even from the medium jets, were uncannily smooth; still others looked fairly stable but still led to go-arounds. I'd say the conditions were fairly variable.

The 777 wing drop in the flare was significant and I'd guess was related to a gust. The pilot's instant and probably instinctive reaction was successful in levelling the wings and once complete the aircraft was pretty much on the ground. Not much point in performing a go-around at that point, unless you fancy going through the whole process again?
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Old 28th Jul 2015, 12:01
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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There would be a school of thought that a G/A at the wing drop would be more dangerous than what they did = land safely. To perform the G/A in a stable manner would require the wings to be levelled. Guess what; that's what they did and found the runway right in front of them. Damn, let's land this sucker.
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Old 28th Jul 2015, 14:39
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Go-arounds in order of occurrence on EHAM RWY27, on July 25, from 11:20 UTC till 14:10 UTC :

KLM1640 (2x)
TRA3K
KLM52Y
KLM1414
KLM88B
QTR275
DLH9PK
AFR071M
DAL74
KLM54W
AFR471U
KLM686
KLM90S
EZY58JA
KLM18G
EIN60J
KLM868
KLM74G
ABW604

Last edited by Aireps; 28th Jul 2015 at 14:39. Reason: Correction
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Old 29th Jul 2015, 01:26
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ACMS View Post
7478ti---after 8 years flying the 777, 8 years on the queen 744 and seeing plenty of PIO in conditions like that I don't agree with you. I'd be surprised if some of that wobbling wasn't from PIO. The Ailerons on the mighty triple are quite sensitive and easy to over control causing PIO. Been there in those weather situations more than once and have the Tee shirt to prove it...

Still much prefer it over the A330......
The rhythm of the repeated banks look Like PIO to me. Turbulence wouldn't cause that steady wing rocking.
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