UA captain flushed his ammunition down the toilet in flight
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Surely, though, shouldnt the question here be "how did he get on board, through home base security, with a stash of ammunition?" (Or did I miss the explanation of this one?).
For whatever reason, many coworkers who are gun enthusiasts choose to use the same duffel bag for shooting at the range and going on a trip. Inevitably, bullets and even guns end up going though security, usually, but not always, found on the first inspection.
Often there is little publicity other than a note in the chief pilot's bulletin saying be more careful out there.
hmmm....no FORDEC in that decision..just leave them stashed in the flight deck, and advise the outgoing crew...
Maybe that's how it would be done back in the day but you would be putting a lot more careers on the line than yours if you did that now and you got caught in my opinion.I certainly agree that in the modern blame game workplace honesty is often not the best policy if you can avoid raising the issue at all. As time goes on I'm less likely to file safety reports and do detailed logbook write-ups after seeing the company and feds increasingly second guess operational decisions from the comfort of a cubicle.
He'd be in more trouble carrying a banana into Australia and would probably get a bigger fine I suspect.
In the very few cases I've been briefed on in recent years, the threatened punishments for accidentally bringing guns and ammo to work have varied considerably.
One coworker says he was given a solemn company hearing, and was afraid he would lose his job (temporarily of course, he's in the union). At the end the chief of airline security shook his hand, thanked him for his honesty and said his testimony would help close loopholes in the screening process. He was returned to the line with no loss of pay.
Another colleague had her case resolved months later with a letter from the TSA and a phone conference with union and TSA lawyers and an administrative law judge. She had to pay a $1300 fine, had a sealed judgment and no criminal record from what she said.
A third acquaintance somehow got local law enforcement involved and was facing felony weapons charges. He felt uncomfortable with the union legal representation and hired his own lawyer. After paying tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees all charges were eventually dropped.
It will comfort the flying public to know that those of us who are FFDO's are screened just like other crewmembers to make sure we are not carrying scissors while transporting our H&K .40 caliber.
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hmmm....no FORDEC in that decision..just leave them stashed in the flight deck, and advise the outgoing crew...
are you serious? there's a fair chance they'll say, "no thanks", and give them to German customs/police, you'd be better off doing that yourself. And as Airbubba said, if they would bring the bullets to the US, then they're not only illegaly importing bullets into the US, it will also be obvious to customs someone illegaly exported them...better just tell it as it is immediately, and admit a mistake, rather than trying to be clever
are you serious?
there's a fair chance they'll say, "no thanks", and give them to German customs/police, you'd be better off doing that yourself. And as Airbubba said, if they would bring the bullets to the US, then they're not only illegaly importing bullets into the US, it will also be obvious to customs someone illegaly exported them...better just tell it as it is immediately, and admit a mistake, rather than trying to be clever
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He must have been a FFDO otherwise, how would he have gotten the ammunition past security personal at his home base. I guess security could have missed it.
More likely is he used that bag for a trip to the range with his personal gun, and failed to empty it completely. That part is understandable and forgivable. However, his actions on the airplane are not -- they were idiotic and dangerous. He even had a second chance when the FA found them in the bin, but again chose idiocy.
IF as reported, I don't think that inadvertently carrying the ammo on board was at all important. What I do think is very worrying is the detachment from reality demonstrated by the captain who seemed to think that he could just make the problem go away.
I would not wish to be flown by such a personality.
I would not wish to be flown by such a personality.
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The point of this story is...everyone can unintentionally make an honest mistake. Admit it, and you'll be ok. You acted in good faith. No bad or dishonest intentions. But then, even though it's human to try to cover up mistakes, the cover-up - unlike the original mistake - is intentional, and can be construed as bad faith. That's a big difference. If you get caught covering up mistakes, you just turned an innocent mistake into intentional deception. All that being said, German authorities didn't pursue him, and most people seem to have some empathy with him when he finally laid all cards on the table. There but for the grace of God comes to my mind again, I wouldn't crucify him.
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My ten year old son gave me a similar problem.
There's me in uniform sending him off on a flight to see mum (usual pilot family), when there is a big kerfuffle in security, and I get an urgent PA to see them IMMEDIATELY.
Turns out he had taken two clips of .303 bullets in his bag, to show his mates. Red faces all round, as I try to explain. But what annoyed me is that the brain-dead security team and manager did not know the difference between live rounds and disabled dummy rounds - they had no firing caps.
But security would not accept the bullets, so I then had two clips of bullets in MY bag. Since the offices were empty I stashed them in the crew room, until I returned, and hoped nobody else would find them. Enough trouble for one day.
Thanks, son....
There's me in uniform sending him off on a flight to see mum (usual pilot family), when there is a big kerfuffle in security, and I get an urgent PA to see them IMMEDIATELY.
Turns out he had taken two clips of .303 bullets in his bag, to show his mates. Red faces all round, as I try to explain. But what annoyed me is that the brain-dead security team and manager did not know the difference between live rounds and disabled dummy rounds - they had no firing caps.
But security would not accept the bullets, so I then had two clips of bullets in MY bag. Since the offices were empty I stashed them in the crew room, until I returned, and hoped nobody else would find them. Enough trouble for one day.
Thanks, son....
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Hmmm, great logic silvertate 
Your 10-year old takes 2 clips of bullets though security and the security team and manager is "brain dead" according to you as they cannot tell live rounds from dummy ...
WTF is a 10 year old doing with 2 clips of bullets at an airport ... and who is "brain dead" here
Your 10-year old takes 2 clips of bullets though security and the security team and manager is "brain dead" according to you as they cannot tell live rounds from dummy ...
WTF is a 10 year old doing with 2 clips of bullets at an airport ... and who is "brain dead" here
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Interesting instinct
I sympathise with the guy about the initial error (I checked-in a jacket with shotgun cartrides in the pocket that I did not know about 
).
What worries me is the action afterwards, I prefer pilot's who make mistakes to own up rather than cover-up.
).What worries me is the action afterwards, I prefer pilot's who make mistakes to own up rather than cover-up.
In defense of silvertate, consider that no one actually ended up in jail. Because they weren't "bullets", they just looked like it. More concerning is that someone tasked with transportation security could not correctly identify a legally owned item.
Knowing little kid logic he probably asked "Can I show my friends?" without context and then figured that meant even friends you had to fly to see.
Knowing little kid logic he probably asked "Can I show my friends?" without context and then figured that meant even friends you had to fly to see.
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I'm assuming the chemicals in the lav tanks wouldn't have any negative effects on the bullets? Like ya know, set them off? And that the Captain knew this?
As for the kid and the empty cartridges, he should have been taught to have more respect for them. He should know enough to AT LEAST ask mom or dad if he can take them to EACH specific place outside the house. Taking them to school, for example, could get him suspended or expelled...
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great logic silvertate
Your 10-year old takes 2 clips of bullets though security and the security team and manager is "brain dead"
Your 10-year old takes 2 clips of bullets though security and the security team and manager is "brain dead"
As to security, their job is to identify security breaches, including illicit munitions. If security does not know what a bullet looks like, then what do they know? It is no wonder we have a security system that concentrates on nail scissors, baby's milk, and yougurts, rather than real security issues.
Tate
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
Silvertate. Do you expect the security team to be munitions experts? As far as they are concerned, a bullet is a bullet. It seems to me that they were doing their job, and doing it correctly.
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Do you expect the security team to be munitions experts?
Yes, that is their job. They are supposed to be there to keep us safe from explosives and other weapons, not just from little old ladies with knitting needles, so they should have an idea what those weapons and explosives look like. To threaten calling in the bomb squad and closing down a major international terminal because a nine-year old kid has some toys, is unprofessional and a waste of everyone's time and money.
And you may find that the captain with bullets had this in mind when he made his unsound judgement. We all know how keen security are to take away your pass, and make you unemployed and unemployable, and if this had already happened amongst his work colleagues, you can bet it would be a part of the decision-making process. Not condoning his ultimate decision of course, but there is a reason for everything - especially when dealing with an intelligent person who has to make critical decisions every day.
So what did lead a rational professional to make such an unsound judgement? Was over-zealous security one of the holes in the Swiss cheese?
Tate
Last edited by silvertate; 16th Jul 2015 at 23:22.
Wouldn't surprise me if the screeners are trained to treat inert items the same as live ones. Otherwise, the folks who test their performance would have to use live items.