Delta 747-400 takes a beating over China

[Naali]

Yes,sometimes the clear part will give You everything the wet part has produced...

[ATC Watcher]

GYS : quote :

The second I called "Pan-pan" I was almost cleared direct the alternate. I am sure he was waiting for that call, so that any responsibility was taken out of his hands.

Common misunderstanding. in ICAO land PAN-PAN is just "an urgency message ,not requiring any assistance" , it wil clear the frequency to state your request(s), but that's about it. (ICAO- DOC 4444)
MAYDAY-MAYDAY on the other hand will get controllers to brake the rules to help and indeed it superseed "normal" rules and regulations, because it is a distress call and a statement of emergency.
.
For info the Civil Chinese controllers we talk to are as frustrated as you and me about the military airspace situation, but they have to follows their SOPs like all of us.

[Good Business Sense]

EXACTLY

For info the Civil Chinese controllers we talk to are as frustrated as you and me about the military airspace situation, but they have to follows their SOPs like all of us.

Exactly!

Exercise command and take the fate of your aircraft and the passengers therein out of the hands of a Chinese ATC/Military SOP ....... don't endanger your aeroplane because you can't get permission for a reroute !

Can't see any of the old skool types like John Wayne running into the CB for the want of an ATC clearance !

[ehwatezedoing]

Originally Posted by Paulus705

Nobody shoots down nobody, just because you deviate to avoid severe weather.

Yes sure!

That's assuming the guy buried in his bunker, with the trigger, understand that you are there only to avoid severe weather.

[RAT 5]

'Risk management.'
1. You fly into a CB you have a very strong chance of severe damage.
2. You deviate and avoid the severe damage.

You have a very small chance of being shot down. To avoid the 2nd you have a radio, you can be back on track before they catch you, you have a chance of common sense being in action because you have broadcast your intentions.

You choose.

[Good Business Sense]

Those talking about shoot downs etc need to get out more and stop watching movies .... you obviously, haven't been to modern day China and before you start talking about it, KAL was different !

[Herod]

Guys. Were any of you there? The CAPTAIN, I repeat the CAPTAIN made a decision. At the moment only he knows whether it was right or wrong. Presumably the company will carry out an investigation, at which point they will also know. Until then, its all speculation, based on different scenarios.

[edmundronald]

There have been multiple cases of macho horseplay and brinksmanship games between the US and Chinese airforce, but has there ever been a case of a commercial heavy in two-way radio contact with traffic control being harmed or even harassed in China after declaring an emergency?

I agree with everything people say about Chinese inflexibility, adherence to the playbook, and passive-agressive behaviour; but on the other hand, compared to the average third world country, one can expect both compliance with chain-of-command from the base of the pyramid, and real competence from the higher up bureaucrats.

Edmund

[Basil]

YS,

Yangon(Yangon) airspace many years ago...Wx ahead and deviation,right of track (the best option),requested,...no reply.

We went across Burma about 15 years ago with no reply from ATC at all.
I flew at an intermediate level just in case. Weird.

[Tank2Engine]

China is investing $80 billion in aviation projects this year alone - Business Insider

Good to hear that China is investing $80 billion in air travel infrastructure, but at the same time you can't fly 10-20nm around a TS because all the airspace is blocked.

Let's hope the Chinese will learn something from this incident and in the way they 'manage' their airspace and that it takes more than just runways and terminal buildings to build an aviation infrastructure, but somehow I seriously doubt it.

By the way, am I the only one who get's the distinct impression that Chinese ATC deliberately tries to screw non-Chinese airlines by refusing weather deviations and also sometimes forcing you to fly 4000, 8000 or even 10000 feet below normal cruising levels?

[deptrai]

yet we have DEPTRAI not wishing to chance his luck and would , presumably, slam into a CB.

no, I didn't say that. I just don't like it when people who weren't there, without a full accident investigation, slam the pilots or the commander. The knee jerk reaction of blaming the commander and calling him "weak" seemed uncalled for, so I came up with a somewhat extreme example of having to chose between weather and a missile test range. We don't know what their wx radar displayed, we don't know what other information they had or didn't have, we don't know their conversation with ATC. We don't even know the extent of the damage to the airframe. I see the composite radome has been hit by flying icebergs, but the cockpit windshields appear ok, no cracks visible to me, and there's no good photos of leading edges and engine nacelles where I would expect possibly damage, and no boroscope inspection of engines... The unsharp low resolution picture of the wing doesn't tell me much, it could be paint that has been scraped off.

Edit: What I do see, is that the "instagram" post the pictures were taken from says it was Delta 157, which would be Amsterdam-Memphis. So much for reliability of random sources on the global internets.

avherald has some more information: http://avherald.com/h?article=48893f03&opt=0

[Airbubba]

We went across Burma about 15 years ago with no reply from ATC at all.
I flew at an intermediate level just in case. Weird.

I transited the Yangon FIR on L301 totally lost comm less than five years ago. We turned the lights on and made position reports in the blind. Other planes on guard had no joy either with the ground guy. I remember thinking that we were lucky not to be over the U.S. for forty minutes without talking to ATC, we'd be intercepted and risk being shot down if there was a misunderstanding.

I've had pretty good luck with wx deviation requests from Shanghai and have been known to fudge a vector off course while waiting for a reply. As others have observed, some of the problem is language. Some of the (other) country boys I work with try something like 'Uh, we'd like to come left a little to get around this cell' instead of 'Request deviation one five miles left of track due weather'.

Does Shanghai use a dice cup for the offsets? I've had mostly stuff like five right but I've occasionally had one like 'offset two miles left'.

[slowjet]

CALLSIGNKILO displaying his customary hot-headedness. None of us were there but read the thread starter again and note that this is "RUMOURS and NEWS". All entitled to comment upon the rumour. I too have flown with people who know it all. I really DID "love" it as I managed to learn valuable lessons and never found it necessary to describe them with facetious use of hidden profanity. FACT is that the aircraft has been written off. RUMOUR is that it was because a denial of off track request led the Commander to stay on track & hit the ice-berg. All has produced lively debate which is the beauty of these forums.

[Midnight Oil]

Regarding the problems of weather avoidance in the PRC - I have been flying into and out of China for almost 25 years, almost every time I strap into an aircraft. I have done thousands of weather deviations there over the years. Requesting weather deviation is the same as anywhere else in the world. Whether you want 5 miles or 50 miles deviation, just tell them what you need and you will usually get it.

However, it is not unusual to have deviation refused due to military activity, or proximity to sensitive airspace, particularly on the east coast. The controllers will almost always offer an alternative deviation on the other side of the airway. I can only think of one or two occasions when I have been refused deviation in any direction. If you have no alternative but to deviate against the controller’s refusal then just transmit “PAN PAN, PAN PAN, PAN PAN”, stating that you are deviating due to thunderstorm. You will then hear the ATC supervisor come over the top to approve the deviation and to ask you to advise when clear of weather. It is never a problem and there will be no comebacks to you.

[alwayzinit]

"KAL was different !"

It most certainly was! That was the Russians! Though I stand ready to be corrected!

[Dan Winterland]

A PAN call is understood and works in China - the controllers understand it. The controllers are often being overseen by a military controller. The civilian controller will have to get deviation clearance from his military counterpart and this may be refused. But if he turns to the guy and says "the aircraft has to deviate - he has called an emergency" then then everyone is happy and you can deviate.

[silvertate]

The radar and Wx radar plot on Av Herald would suggest that the captain DID divert around the weather.

They appear to be threading between two storm cells, to avoid a very leangthy diversion. So it may be that they were hit by anvil-hail, which is very hard to spot on the Wx radar.

Tate

[neila83]

Originally Posted by silvertate

The radar and Wx radar plot on Av Herald would suggest that the captain DID divert around the weather.

They appear to be threading between two storm cells, to avoid a very leangthy diversion. So it may be that they were hit by anvil-hail, which is very hard to spot on the Wx radar.

Tate

Except we know the reason given for this event is that they couldn't divert because they weren't allowed to. Also reports of severe turbulence and the damage meaning this is likely a write off implies they were in the storm rather than just getting hit by some hail. Since the pilots requested a diversion, it seems they saw it on their radar. And flew into it, essentially relying on nothing but luck that they wouldn't kill everyone. I feel for the passengers, o cannot imagine how terrifying it would have been.

[deptrai]

if the airframe is written off, sure there must be substantial damage, but keep in mind that this was a 26 year old ex Northwest airframe, and Delta will be phasing out the 747 fleet by 2017. Not trying to be a smartass, and not advocating flying into hail or cb but the resale value of that 747 probably wasn't extremely high even before it was damaged. iI a decision to write it off is taken, it reflects repair cost > residual value, not "damage" alone.

[Airbubba]

Not trying to be a smartass, and not advocating flying into hail or cb but the resale value of that 747 probably wasn't extremely high even before it was damaged. iI a decision to write it off is taken, it reflects repair cost > residual value, not "damage" alone.

And, in some cases like this, the repair will be done, even if it doesn't appear to make sense economically just to avoid a 'hull loss' which can drive up fleet insurance rates. Or, look bad for the airline 'Rainman' safety record e.g. QF1 at BKK.