Delta 747-400 takes a beating over China
Pegase Driver
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Superb post !
Flying Clog , unfortunately as an old generation former Controller I have to admit that I love your last paragraph !
I will share this on to my old ( mostly Aussies) mates in HK who will appreciate it I am sure.
Sometime It feel we're like the F@kng dinausaurs in this industry.
....and would love to buy you a beer too !
I will share this on to my old ( mostly Aussies) mates in HK who will appreciate it I am sure.
Sometime It feel we're like the F@kng dinausaurs in this industry.
....and would love to buy you a beer too !
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@Flying Clog
As a side note, Hong Kong ATC used to be the exception with very professional ATC, but since the bean counters have taken charge of this sad, sad industry they've booted out the experienced guys/gals and replaced them with the utterly useless local 'cannot'/iphone squad
"One country, two systems" is a nice little slogan in order to pacify people who are, rightfully so, extremely worried about China's human rights record, but over the last 5-10 years I get the impression that slowly but steadily, HKG is becoming less vibrant, less flexible, more bureaucratic and more a carbon copy of China.
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As a long-time HK resident I can certainly believe the goat comment, but does this mean that China's safety record is luck? Given the extraordinary growth there, it seems from a lay point of view that they've actually managed it well.
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For those looking for more info from delta. Once an organization becomes a party to an NTSB investigation they are restricted mostly from commenting on facts in the case or they will be asked to leave the investigation .
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from post #68: Delta notified the the National Transportation Safety Board about the incident, but reported no injuries, "no substantial damage" to the aircraft and no airframe penetration, NTSB spokesman Eric Weiss said. The incident is not under investigation, he added. He declined to provide more information.
I seriously doubt that any investigation beyond filing a report will happen.
I can't think of an action instigated by the regulator towards Delta.
Pilot decision making and foreign country controller actions by themselves are typically behind the scenes of being second guessed by outsiders to all the facts.
I can't think of an action instigated by the regulator towards Delta.
Pilot decision making and foreign country controller actions by themselves are typically behind the scenes of being second guessed by outsiders to all the facts.
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I guess Chinese ATC would have attended courses in English jargon but if they are translating in their head then you might have problems with request and require as they come out the same (要求). What makes the difference is adding a time marker e.g. 'immediately'.
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The Chinese military have a very long chain of command (low trust). Unless there is a crisis and the response has been pre-authorised, by the time they get the general out of his karaoke session you will be long gone. On the otherhand, if you have flown into a military exercise they might think you are the target drone.
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As a retired captain for a major carrier, I heartily agree with Clog's post. I also hate second-guessing the actions of any other captain when I wasn't in the cockpit at the time.
Without passing judgment on this particular incident, it's my feeling that it may not be just the newer ATC controllers whose heads are in the wrong place these days.
I've been retired for over ten years now (hard to believe), but even before retirement I was already noticing company encroachment into newer pilots' thought processes.
Although they won't admit it, airlines generally dislike "Captain's Authority", viewing it as a threat to "Management Authority" and heavily promote (at my company, at least) contacting dispatch for any little thing that doesn't go exactly according to plan. Even among the younger ex-military copilots, I would sometimes hear the question, "Shouldn't we contact dispatch?" whenever something like holding vs. diverting came up.
Don't get me wrong..... dispatch is a very valuable resource and I relied upon them frequently for input into my decisions. But when you're "real busy", so to speak, asking dispatch to make your decision for you wasn't the first item on my checklist.
I fear that the mentality of deferring to "higher authority" may be creeping into the left seat, and that sort of mindset includes ATC authority.
Without passing judgment on this particular incident, it's my feeling that it may not be just the newer ATC controllers whose heads are in the wrong place these days.
I've been retired for over ten years now (hard to believe), but even before retirement I was already noticing company encroachment into newer pilots' thought processes.
Although they won't admit it, airlines generally dislike "Captain's Authority", viewing it as a threat to "Management Authority" and heavily promote (at my company, at least) contacting dispatch for any little thing that doesn't go exactly according to plan. Even among the younger ex-military copilots, I would sometimes hear the question, "Shouldn't we contact dispatch?" whenever something like holding vs. diverting came up.
Don't get me wrong..... dispatch is a very valuable resource and I relied upon them frequently for input into my decisions. But when you're "real busy", so to speak, asking dispatch to make your decision for you wasn't the first item on my checklist.
I fear that the mentality of deferring to "higher authority" may be creeping into the left seat, and that sort of mindset includes ATC authority.
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quote ekw:
The Chinese military have a very long chain of command (low trust). Unless there is a crisis and the response has been pre-authorised, by the time they get the general out of his karaoke session you will be long gone. On the otherhand, if you have flown into a military exercise they might think you are the target drone.
unquote
Yes, and I remember the time the Taiwanese military shot down their Learjet (towing a target ) instead of the target itself.
So flying into an active target area is not safe, to put it mildly.
The Chinese military have a very long chain of command (low trust). Unless there is a crisis and the response has been pre-authorised, by the time they get the general out of his karaoke session you will be long gone. On the otherhand, if you have flown into a military exercise they might think you are the target drone.
unquote
Yes, and I remember the time the Taiwanese military shot down their Learjet (towing a target ) instead of the target itself.
So flying into an active target area is not safe, to put it mildly.
Last edited by armchairpilot94116; 20th Jul 2015 at 16:03. Reason: wording
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787 with hail damage
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Not sure what Delta should have done different in communication. Crew communicated problem to passengers (ATC problem, not allowed to deviate for weather), cabin apparently more or less secured as no injuries, 4h after flight landed compensation of 15k miles... Seems pretty good reaction to me.
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Communist controllers
I had very similar situation once flying from Berlin to Amsterdam (before the wall came down and Germany unified) Major cell drifting onto our airway and we squeezed around it. I had the East German controller pipeing up, informing me I was drifting into their airspace. This was 1988 (before GPS) and repeated vor/dme cross cuts kept me busy ensuring we were right on the edge of that airway. I kept the conversation going as we picked around the cell using the weather radar. Lots of threats from him, lots of calming dialogue back from me. Eventually I said if we returned to Berlin we could only turn 180 to the right due weather, which would take us way off the edge airway and much deeper into his airspace. I gave him the choice. While he provaricated (or spoke to senior goon) we cleared the cell and realignged with the airway. 20 minutes of unnecessary harrassment due to a communist dogma. I dont envy this Delta crews situation. Maybe squak 7700 and transmit "blind" heading wherever you need to for as short as time as neccessary. Only thing thats ever scared in 35 years flying has been CB related. CB's are a real and certain threat. The results of ignoring ATC are far far less of a threat.
Last edited by Heli-phile; 1st Aug 2015 at 04:38. Reason: typo
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I went through the same airway about a week later, had a lot of CB's and was denied deviation. I deviated anyway and told atc what I was doing and kept saying "denied" "denied" "denied". Then he gave up objecting and acted normal, if there is such a thing with Dalian control. Anyway I never heard another word about it after that.
