Delta 747-400 takes a beating over China
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but it is the one form of transport that will willingly put its passengers through some pretty scary situations just to get from a to b
Do you have any evidence for that? Can you show me just one line pilot who willingly scares passengers? I have never met any. Pilots in general are safety conscious to the extreme, and - unrelated - care a lot about making a flight comfortable for passengers. If possible, pilots stay far away from even mild turbulence, just to ensure passenger comfort (even if it has nothing to do with safety). To continue this off topic discussion (sorry for the thread drift): Driving a car will put you in a lot more dangerous situations, yet few people seem to think that is scary. Yet some people are easily scared by completely innocent turbulence. Turbulence may be annoying, making it more difficult to read or sleep, and you could spill some coffee, but it isn't dangerous. Frankly concerns about turbulence seem to be a very subjective, somewhat irrational fear. So why do some people perceive turbulence as scary Or is it something else that scares you?
Do you have any evidence for that? Can you show me just one line pilot who willingly scares passengers? I have never met any. Pilots in general are safety conscious to the extreme, and - unrelated - care a lot about making a flight comfortable for passengers. If possible, pilots stay far away from even mild turbulence, just to ensure passenger comfort (even if it has nothing to do with safety). To continue this off topic discussion (sorry for the thread drift): Driving a car will put you in a lot more dangerous situations, yet few people seem to think that is scary. Yet some people are easily scared by completely innocent turbulence. Turbulence may be annoying, making it more difficult to read or sleep, and you could spill some coffee, but it isn't dangerous. Frankly concerns about turbulence seem to be a very subjective, somewhat irrational fear. So why do some people perceive turbulence as scary Or is it something else that scares you?
I suspect the airline has little to add to what you already know. Investigations into a incident like this can take up to a year. Any information they were to provide you now would more then likely be inaccurate. The other thing you need to keep in mind is the vast majority of requests like yours are from passengers fishing for info for a planned lawsuit.
You know the basics of the event. What specific info do you want Delta to provide?
You know the basics of the event. What specific info do you want Delta to provide?
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deptrai, I agree with most of what you say, but the turbulence one encounters in a CB is well above the norm and will for sure be bloody scary for most passengers, not to mention cabin crew for that matter. Indeed, knowing full well how crews do their utmost to avoid them, if my flight went through a CB I think even I would be curious to know why. So, I can understand bwalker351's point of view in that sense.
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so far there is only evidence that there was hail. I am not aware of any evidence that they penetrated a cb. They could just as well have encountered hail outside of a cb, maybe slightly under the anvil, and/or on the downwind side.
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Exactly. You need to be careful what you read on the internet or what thought you read on the internet. Throwing the crew under the bus at this stage seems a little premature.
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I can understand Delta wanting to manage the communication and information on this incident. I have worked in corporate communications and crisis management, etc. I requested that Delta provide me and all other passengers with some sort of follow up report as to what happened during this flight. I did not ask for an immediate report. Delta did an admirable job with their initial communication to me (presumably to all passengers) acknowledging the uncomfortable flight and crediting us with 15K Skymiles as compensation. This email was sent out to me within 4-5 hrs. after the flight. I can also understand the concerns of a potential lawsuit. Of course, a lawsuit would only have merit if Delta did something wrong.
Many years ago I pursued my private pilots license, but have not piloted anything bigger than a 172, so I wouldn't presume to have any knowledge or experience comparable to many of you here. All that I do know is that the flight was totally uneventful and smooth until the pilot made an abrupt warning to passengers and cabin crew to sit down and buckle up. The turbulence we encountered after that would clearly be deemed severe. The plane 'dropped' several times and then slammed into something. The food and beverage carts were knocked over. At least two (from what I could see) overhead bins popped opened and luggage came out. The captain (presumably) came on and said he was having trouble with the Chines ATC in getting around the weather. The cabin crew did a good job at checking on everyone afterwards, restowing luggage, and distributing extra air sickness bags.
After deplaning in ICN, many passengers stopped outside the jetbridge to take pictures of the aircraft damage. I took some pictures as well, and a pilot emerged from behind me from the jetbridge. He stopped when he saw the aircraft and stared for a few seconds, then took his phone out and started snapping some pictures as well. Some of the other passengers came up to him and asked if he was flying the plane. He said no, he had been in the crew rest area when the turbulence hit... and he said all he could do was hold on while he got knocked around.
I had to run to catch my connecting flight onward to MNL. Upon landing in MNL I checked my emails and Delta had sent their customer care email. Subsequently, I have only asked that Delta provide us with some additional follow up to the flight. Their final email to me was that they would not be responding to any more of my inquiries, would provide no more information, nor any more compensation. I had never asked for any more compensation, only for information. According to the news reports, Delta told the NTSB that there were no injuries nor any significant damage to the aircraft, thus no investigation would be conducted.
Many years ago I pursued my private pilots license, but have not piloted anything bigger than a 172, so I wouldn't presume to have any knowledge or experience comparable to many of you here. All that I do know is that the flight was totally uneventful and smooth until the pilot made an abrupt warning to passengers and cabin crew to sit down and buckle up. The turbulence we encountered after that would clearly be deemed severe. The plane 'dropped' several times and then slammed into something. The food and beverage carts were knocked over. At least two (from what I could see) overhead bins popped opened and luggage came out. The captain (presumably) came on and said he was having trouble with the Chines ATC in getting around the weather. The cabin crew did a good job at checking on everyone afterwards, restowing luggage, and distributing extra air sickness bags.
After deplaning in ICN, many passengers stopped outside the jetbridge to take pictures of the aircraft damage. I took some pictures as well, and a pilot emerged from behind me from the jetbridge. He stopped when he saw the aircraft and stared for a few seconds, then took his phone out and started snapping some pictures as well. Some of the other passengers came up to him and asked if he was flying the plane. He said no, he had been in the crew rest area when the turbulence hit... and he said all he could do was hold on while he got knocked around.
I had to run to catch my connecting flight onward to MNL. Upon landing in MNL I checked my emails and Delta had sent their customer care email. Subsequently, I have only asked that Delta provide us with some additional follow up to the flight. Their final email to me was that they would not be responding to any more of my inquiries, would provide no more information, nor any more compensation. I had never asked for any more compensation, only for information. According to the news reports, Delta told the NTSB that there were no injuries nor any significant damage to the aircraft, thus no investigation would be conducted.
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Should Delta Report to Passengers?
Should Delta Report to Passengers?
There would be absolutely no requirements for Delta to do so.
Only appropriate regulatory agencies.
The fact is that many passengers (perhaps unjustly so) are worried about flying in general, when the plane they flew is "totaled" (unscheduled retirement) following, the even rises to unbelievable in the eyes of these passengers.
If the airline was "smart" and attended to customer relations it would have taken the time to write a letter to the passenger with some appeasing comments concerning their safety and that as uncomfortable as it may have been and despite the fate of the ship there was never a concern about safety.
I have been on flights where the entertainment system was all messed up and received an email after attempting to set matters straight, why not after a flight where the plane was taken out of service due to an event.
Marketing, plain and simple!
There would be absolutely no requirements for Delta to do so.
Only appropriate regulatory agencies.
The fact is that many passengers (perhaps unjustly so) are worried about flying in general, when the plane they flew is "totaled" (unscheduled retirement) following, the even rises to unbelievable in the eyes of these passengers.
If the airline was "smart" and attended to customer relations it would have taken the time to write a letter to the passenger with some appeasing comments concerning their safety and that as uncomfortable as it may have been and despite the fate of the ship there was never a concern about safety.
I have been on flights where the entertainment system was all messed up and received an email after attempting to set matters straight, why not after a flight where the plane was taken out of service due to an event.
Marketing, plain and simple!
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Reminds me of a quote,
"There is no reason to fly through a thunderstorm in peacetime.
Sign over squadron ops desk at Davis-Monthan AFB, AZ, 1970"
But I believe, as some have said the hail came on fast and furious and often won't paint on radar outside main CB's
"There is no reason to fly through a thunderstorm in peacetime.
Sign over squadron ops desk at Davis-Monthan AFB, AZ, 1970"
But I believe, as some have said the hail came on fast and furious and often won't paint on radar outside main CB's
Hail does not paint at all on radar unless it is wet hail. Hail can be thrown a considerable distance from a storm. In some cases 20 miles downwind.The aircraft was not totaled. Delta is parking the 747 fleet. 3 airframes had just been parked and 5 more will be parked in the fall. No point at all in fixing the airframe. Just grab one of the 3 just parked and put it back in service. It will be parked again in OCT probably forever. The 747's Delta has are very high time. Their only value is in the engines.
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"The aircraft was not totaled."
If you noticed I put that in quotation marks as tongue in cheek.
Passengers learning that it was taken out of service are, however, likely to see it as such and as most would understand perception is reality.
The airline and its associates can argue the technical and legal aspects all they want and be 100% correct.
Still many passengers will not understand.
Marketing and customer relations are very foreign concepts for many, but a simple email revealing nothing more than is already public and validated along some appeasing statements would be wise IMO.
If you noticed I put that in quotation marks as tongue in cheek.
Passengers learning that it was taken out of service are, however, likely to see it as such and as most would understand perception is reality.
The airline and its associates can argue the technical and legal aspects all they want and be 100% correct.
Still many passengers will not understand.
Marketing and customer relations are very foreign concepts for many, but a simple email revealing nothing more than is already public and validated along some appeasing statements would be wise IMO.
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Interesting point about airline passenger aftercare in such an incident,after my rant about Iberia,in May.
On that flight,having injured some,and scared the life out of most of the other passengers,they have followed up three times,with my family members...
Offers of discounted fares,at least!...but no real explanation,as that could easily open channels for litigation.....(just a general comment,Spooky..no one I know is interested in litigation,at least,not this side of the Atlantic)
On that flight,having injured some,and scared the life out of most of the other passengers,they have followed up three times,with my family members...
Offers of discounted fares,at least!...but no real explanation,as that could easily open channels for litigation.....(just a general comment,Spooky..no one I know is interested in litigation,at least,not this side of the Atlantic)
Last edited by Yaw String; 21st Jul 2015 at 15:38.
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"Marketing and customer relations are very foreign concepts for many, but a simple email revealing nothing more than is already public and validated along some appeasing statements would be wise IMO".
Okay I know you want t sue so badly you can taste it and fishing around for some leads that will promote your cause. Go for it if you think your feeling have been hurt that badly. There are whole bunch just like you that inhabit a few other aviation websites. Suggest you try your hurt feeling on over there.
"Offers of discounted fares, at least!...but no real explanation, as that could easily open channels for litigation..... " More of the same."
Go for it if makes you feel better. There are always some in the crowd that think suing is the answer for just about anything that displeases them, or in their own minds is a justification.
Okay I know you want t sue so badly you can taste it and fishing around for some leads that will promote your cause. Go for it if you think your feeling have been hurt that badly. There are whole bunch just like you that inhabit a few other aviation websites. Suggest you try your hurt feeling on over there.
"Offers of discounted fares, at least!...but no real explanation, as that could easily open channels for litigation..... " More of the same."
Go for it if makes you feel better. There are always some in the crowd that think suing is the answer for just about anything that displeases them, or in their own minds is a justification.
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"Marketing and customer relations are very foreign concepts for many, but a simple email revealing nothing more than is already public and validated along some appeasing statements would be wise IMO".
Okay I know you want t sue so badly you can taste it and fishing around for some leads that will promote your cause. Go for it if you think your feeling have been hurt that badly. There are whole bunch just like you that inhabit a few other aviation websites. Suggest you try your hurt feeling on over there.
Spooky, I Think your board name becomes you.
You seem to be a bit paranoid with legal actions. In this regard any idiot would know there would never be one the could hold any water.
I am a three million miler with Delta and have had my share of opportunities if I was so inclined, I have received a fair few emails (and bonus miles for that matter) for events that was not 'normal'.
When I said "Marketing and customer relations are very foreign concepts for many", I now have proven my point.
Okay I know you want t sue so badly you can taste it and fishing around for some leads that will promote your cause. Go for it if you think your feeling have been hurt that badly. There are whole bunch just like you that inhabit a few other aviation websites. Suggest you try your hurt feeling on over there.
Spooky, I Think your board name becomes you.
You seem to be a bit paranoid with legal actions. In this regard any idiot would know there would never be one the could hold any water.
I am a three million miler with Delta and have had my share of opportunities if I was so inclined, I have received a fair few emails (and bonus miles for that matter) for events that was not 'normal'.
When I said "Marketing and customer relations are very foreign concepts for many", I now have proven my point.
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More data needed to draw useful conclusions and advice
Many of us have unexpectedly encountered hail, or a near brush with hail, or severe turbulence, even with responsible best planning and piloting efforts, and drawing on long experience. The threat of TRW++, and hail, and turbulence remains in global air transport. So without more data and facts, it is still inappropriate to be drawing conclusions about this specific event yet, especially in terms of the crew's potential role, for any conclusions beyond the fact that TRWs, and hail, and severe turbulence are still ever-present threats in global air transport.
Just for example... what radar were they using??? Even some of the latest modern WX radars have known weaknesses that are still being addressed and improved, for both false positives and missed threats. Some have even failed certs until evolved, required explanatory bulletins, or nearly failed certs for some aspects.
What relationship existed, and why did that relationship exist, between the crew and ATS in that FIR or sector, for the expeditious handling of any needed or requested WX avoidance trajectory change ???
What are the consequences of WX deviations on various routes or in various states globally, and how are they reflected in company policies for each state or FIR, and how are variances handled when a pilot deviation request is ignored or denied by ATS, even when repeated or re-emphasized by the crew, or escalating the request by using PAN, or using emergency authority, or even invoking MAYDAY?
What weather data did the crew have, and when, and what was its quality, age, and reliability. Our real time weather data in air carrier ops, especially in some regions and FIRS, and on the flight deck, is still abysmal compared to what we could already have had for decades (even in the US), if we weren't still mired in "PastGen" globally. What role did WX data or lack of WX data play?
So unless and until this is all better identified or clarified, it is still inappropriate to draw any conclusions on this event, except perhaps to be sympathetic to another flight crew and airline caught by encountering a delicate difficult operational situation, while we await more and better data, or the completion of the investigation.
Just for example... what radar were they using??? Even some of the latest modern WX radars have known weaknesses that are still being addressed and improved, for both false positives and missed threats. Some have even failed certs until evolved, required explanatory bulletins, or nearly failed certs for some aspects.
What relationship existed, and why did that relationship exist, between the crew and ATS in that FIR or sector, for the expeditious handling of any needed or requested WX avoidance trajectory change ???
What are the consequences of WX deviations on various routes or in various states globally, and how are they reflected in company policies for each state or FIR, and how are variances handled when a pilot deviation request is ignored or denied by ATS, even when repeated or re-emphasized by the crew, or escalating the request by using PAN, or using emergency authority, or even invoking MAYDAY?
What weather data did the crew have, and when, and what was its quality, age, and reliability. Our real time weather data in air carrier ops, especially in some regions and FIRS, and on the flight deck, is still abysmal compared to what we could already have had for decades (even in the US), if we weren't still mired in "PastGen" globally. What role did WX data or lack of WX data play?
So unless and until this is all better identified or clarified, it is still inappropriate to draw any conclusions on this event, except perhaps to be sympathetic to another flight crew and airline caught by encountering a delicate difficult operational situation, while we await more and better data, or the completion of the investigation.
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You're all completely over analysing the situation.
Coming from someone who reluctantly flies through Chinese airspace on a regular basis - you're dealing with a bunch of clowns here who have no clue how to clamber out of a wet paper bag, let alone run an efficient ATS. It's a complete goat f@ck.
Simples, take the bull by the horns, declare a pan or mayday if you have to, and get on with it, get around the weather and don't put the aircraft or it's pax in danger. By no means EVER trust them as far as you can urinate.
I can sympathise with the yank who did serious damage to his aircraft and endangered his passengers, in the good ol' US of A air traffic control go out of their way to advise and vector you around weather. However, this is sadly only the case in his home country. No other ATS in the world is quite that proactive.
As a long haul skipper, I guess he should have been aware of this short fall in 'foreign' ATC, let alone the bunch of drop kicks that is Asian ATC.
As a side note, Hong Kong ATC used to be the exception with very professional ATC, but since the bean counters have taken charge of this sad, sad industry they've booted out the experienced guys/gals and replaced them with the utterly useless local 'cannot'/iphone squad. So now as soon as there's any weather within 500nm the wheels fall off, and again, one needs to take the bull by the horns and get on with telling these children how to do their jobs.
Pathetic.
Coming from someone who reluctantly flies through Chinese airspace on a regular basis - you're dealing with a bunch of clowns here who have no clue how to clamber out of a wet paper bag, let alone run an efficient ATS. It's a complete goat f@ck.
Simples, take the bull by the horns, declare a pan or mayday if you have to, and get on with it, get around the weather and don't put the aircraft or it's pax in danger. By no means EVER trust them as far as you can urinate.
I can sympathise with the yank who did serious damage to his aircraft and endangered his passengers, in the good ol' US of A air traffic control go out of their way to advise and vector you around weather. However, this is sadly only the case in his home country. No other ATS in the world is quite that proactive.
As a long haul skipper, I guess he should have been aware of this short fall in 'foreign' ATC, let alone the bunch of drop kicks that is Asian ATC.
As a side note, Hong Kong ATC used to be the exception with very professional ATC, but since the bean counters have taken charge of this sad, sad industry they've booted out the experienced guys/gals and replaced them with the utterly useless local 'cannot'/iphone squad. So now as soon as there's any weather within 500nm the wheels fall off, and again, one needs to take the bull by the horns and get on with telling these children how to do their jobs.
Pathetic.
Last edited by Flying Clog; 14th Jul 2015 at 00:55.
As someone who has been operating around Hong Kong, China and Asia for a quarter of a century, I heartily concur with the previous post.