Midway MDW incident averted

[captjns]

We've heard/read from the ATC side of the incident. Excerpt from Aviation Herald.

A Delta Airlines Boeing 717-200, registration N939AT performing flight DL-1328 from Chicago Midway,IL to Atlanta,GA (USA), had been cleared to line up runway 04R and wait, the crew was advised that another aircraft was waiting for departure on the crossing runway and a second aircraft was landing on the parallel runway. The aircraft taxied into position and waited.

The CVRs may lend additional information to see if there was non essential conversation taking place which could have also contributed to the incident. Not the first incident/accident that resulted because of poor cockpit discipline during critical phases of flight.

Common flight numbers? EK325 and 9W325 DXB - MAA a red eye flight on the heals of one another. Issues... language barrier... backside of the clock flying... ATC/Flt crew RT mistakes. Letter prefixes or suffixes don't cure the problem.

[Squawk7777]

Originally Posted by Big Pistons Forever

Like usual it did not take long for the radio pedants to ride in with their self righteous certainty about the superiority of the EU way.

The new hires at Southwest and Delta are running 4 and 5 thousand hours, but your EU LOCO with the 200 hr airline puppy mill graduate is going to be so much safer because he can talk the "right" way on the radio

It's called the "my poo doesn't stink" syndrome! Proper R/T fixes all the aviation problems, like lag of piloting skills, underpaid LCC pilots etc.*

* sarcasm

[skyhighfallguy]

What really caused this incident is trying to put 7 pounds of sugar into a 6 pound sack. And the need for speed. Hurry up all you pilots or the chief pilot will get mad at you for being late.

IF you are on the ground, the need for speed STOPS. Parallels to Teneriefe are about right. WAS there any question in the cockpit? IF SO, don't move, clarify the clearance.

Get on the radio and confirm: Tower, DELTA XXXX VERIFY takeoff clearance for DELTA XXXX on runway XX.

Midway airport is a funny airport. Its operations are dictated more by nearby o'hare airport than its own needs. Add to that performance limited runways and things are hanging on by a thread.

Its hard to see what is going on , on the other runways with the mk1 eyeball too.

Well, it worked out and it was interesting to hear old Southwest cover themselves first.

I can imagine a scenario in which the radio calls were covered just enough to make sense to both planes/pilots

[Phileas Fogg]

As an ex air trafficker in a very distant previous life I still recall the numbers wun, too, tree, fower, fife, ate, niner etc. ... Could never add two numbers together to make thirteen (wuntree) or similar.

When recording the ATIS the QFE might be 1000mb but I used to have to record "wun zero zero zero" although I would bend the rules ad-libbing "one thousand" millibars.

And of course the lower runway numbers were "zero nine" or similar, always the zero.

[DaveReidUK]

And of course the lower runway numbers were "zero nine" or similar, always the zero.

But not in the USA.

FAA AC 150/5340-1L:

"A single-digit runway landing designation number is never preceded by a zero"

[Derfred]

I've always thought group callsigns were an accident waiting to happen. 13 sounds very much like 38 when spoken as a group callsign. I have heard of incidents involving for example 59 vs 69 or 15 vs 16 which sound very similar when using group callsigns.

The whole point of the phonetic alphabet designed by our forefathers was to avoid this.

[Airbubba]

Well, it worked out and it was interesting to hear old Southwest cover themselves first.

I think I'd do the same thing these days, it would be good to know before calling the company.

And, if you said that the Delta Professionals had made a mistake, who would believe you without a corroborating witness?

Remember the not so distant 'good old days' when you might try a couple of takeoffs before taxiing back to the blocks with a configuration warning you were 'sure' was spurious? Now, you need to be redispatched if you've pushed the throttles up, released the brakes, started to roll and been told by the tower to stop and taxi clear of the active runway for flow control.

At least that is how I understand it, the goalposts keep moving on when you need an amended release, when you can enter an MEL item yourself, defer the deferral, and so on.

So yes, I spend a lot of time thinking about CYA stuff instead of flying the plane.

There is an audio link in this WSJ blog article where a Southwest pilot is similarly anxious to make sure the tower controller gets full credit for an earlier near miss on the ground at MDW:

Audio Recording of Midway Near-Miss Paints Picture of Southwest Pilot Concern - The Middle Seat Terminal - WSJ

[skyhighfallguy]

airbubba, believe me I understand.


The whole thing has been ginned down to the minimum, with no reserve for failure.

Radio calls 70 years ago were precious things and each word had to mean something. War and Life depended upon it.

The poster who mentions the older methods on the radio is correct (notice I didn't say RIGHT, which should be a direction!).

Even years ago, aviation radio started to sound like, C B RADIO LINGO!

Slow down, do it CORRECTLY, read the AIM and do it like it says and BE SURE

[pattern_is_full]

I get the possible confusion between 1328 and 3828, and the possibility of an incomplete (stepped-on) reception....

But if you are flying for DELTA, and the clearance is given for SOUTHWEST, surely anyone will notice that difference? I mean, that is EIGHT different letters (preceding), not just one (trailing, as recommended from European ops).

[Airbubba]

Even years ago, aviation radio started to sound like, C B RADIO LINGO!

Slow down, do it CORRECTLY, read the AIM and do it like it says and BE SURE

I've sure made the CB observation as well. It goes over even worse internationally when we Americans try to sound 'cool'.

From a 2011 post here on a similar clearance miscue thread, about a radio exchange I heard in Singapore:

...some of my fellow Americans are still very casual with the readbacks, the CB radio craze ended in the '70's but you'd never know it listening to the transmissions.

'Delta 280, line up and wait runway 02 left'

'Uh, 280 clear to go'

'Negative Delta 280, I say again, line up and wait runway 02 left!'

'OK, 280 on the hold'

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/4...ml#post6837505

[xaf2fe]

They did

i have never understood why the FAA has not adopted the EU system of callsign modification, e.g. SWA1328 could have used the callsign SWA132H and SWA3828 could have used the callsign SWA382J. Risk reduced. I loved the callsign mod when I flew contract in Europe.

Used to, but I think it was an idea from the airline's safety dept, not The Friendly Aviation Agency.

Back in the 60s/70s when Air West was flying, every AW call sign ended in "Red" to avoid confusion with Western Airlines flights. It would have been "Western thirteen twenty eight" and "Air West thirty eight twenty eight Red."

[737er]

Quote:
Takes more readback brain power to say each digit seperately.
Really, works well all over the world, except in the USA. Does your statement describe the underlying problem?

Yes really. I'm not saying it's correct but "thirty eight, twenty eight" is easier than "three-eight-two-eight" when issuing or reading back multiple instructions and that's why pilots and controllers revert to it.

It reduces the memory involved by compartmentalizing two numbers instead of four. Push one glass on a full coffee table and another is more likely to fall off. It works...just a question of what's the safest overall. Pilots and controllers in the U.S. know it works from experience with both, especially with 4 digit call signs.

What where they using in the Canary Islands?

[gtseraf]

It would be interesting to find out the background details about each crew's duty day up to that point.

An error was made, which, in isolation looks like it may have been due to carelessness. Were the crews at the end of a 12 hour day?, were they at the end of a series of long duty days.

Just saying!

[PositiveClimbGearUp]

I wouldn't go as far as calling it a huge potential for a serious accident. There is never just one factor leading to an incident/accident.

However, removing one factor from the chain of events may be all that is needed to prevent the incident/accident occurring.

[Hotel Tango]

There are of course numerous factors which can lead to these type of incidents. Some contributing factors are possibly:

- use of non ICAO phraseology (the norm in the USA though).

- Over rapid delivery of clearances by controllers.

- A tendency to clip the first part of the call sign when initiating a transmission.

These busy U.S. airports have to move a lot of traffic. In their endeavour to keep things moving, many controllers resolve to speaking much faster than they in fact really need to. Couple that with the additional traffic information they have to reel off prior to giving what should be a relatively simple take-off or landing clearance and you have a recipe for misunderstandings.

[West Coast]

Do your generalizations have anything to do with the MDW event?

Why don't we wait for the professionals whose job it is to investigate figure it out.

[Hotel Tango]

Take a chill pill West Coast. I think you may have misunderstood and gone on the defensive. I think ATC in the USA is some of the best in the world. What I wrote are generalizations of my own observations from personal experience and the witnessing of a few "close calls" over many years working in ATC. I'm not aware that I said this was the cause for the MDW incident. When I said, " some contributing factors are possibly" I was referring to my first line and not specifically to the MDW incident. But on reflection I can now see that I should have made that somewhat clearer. Oh, and note the word "possibly".

[737er]

Couple that with the additional traffic information they have to reel off prior to giving what should be a relatively simple take-off or landing clearance and you have a recipe for misunderstandings.

Which would only be made worse with ICAO one digit at a time call signs, such as Tenerife where KLM received a four number call sign, a new departure clearance with altitudes, fixes and radials......all in a single transmission with the words "cleared" and "takeoff" while he was assigned line up and wait.

Would a two or three digit flight number (or phraseology which compartmentalized it to such) have made the difference? Maybe not, but it would have made the odds better.

1705:53.4 APP KLM eight seven * zero five uh you are cleared to the Papa Beacon climb to and maintain flight level nine zero right turn after take-off proceed with heading zero four zero until intercepting the three two five radial from Las Palmas VOR.

Even the controller....one digit at a time and then "uh"

[Squawk7777]

Originally Posted by Hotel Tango

There are of course numerous factors which can lead to these type of incidents. Some contributing factors are possibly:

- use of non ICAO phraseology (the norm in the USA though).

- Over rapid delivery of clearances by controllers.

- A tendency to clip the first part of the call sign when initiating a transmission.

These busy U.S. airports have to move a lot of traffic. In their endeavour to keep things moving, many controllers resolve to speaking much faster than they in fact really need to. Couple that with the additional traffic information they have to reel off prior to giving what should be a relatively simple take-off or landing clearance and you have a recipe for misunderstandings.

Looking at the amount of daily flights in the USA and the use of non-ICAO phraseology, I think the this whole proper R/T ICAO pet argument is grossly exaggerated.

I agree that especially SWA should use less slang domestically.

I disagree that reading back single numbers are much safer than read in chunks, the system of using different letters as suffixes seems to be best solution.

[Cantiflas]

Plainly speaking

Quote Phileas Fogg:As an ex air trafficker in a very distant previous life I still recall the numbers wun, too, tree, fower, fife, ate, niner etc. ...

Just musing-My Black Country mates and I were almost there anyway!