Airline pilots 'buckling under unacceptable pressures'?
It may be beneficial to the masses if someone would be prepared to post what they consider a typical months fatiguing roster on here, so that we can expand the discussion with some clear facts!
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Or what about the RMT becoming the main pilot Union? That would stop this 
overnight!
Any RMT members wanna give them the nod, think of the extra subs they will receive.
overnight! Any RMT members wanna give them the nod, think of the extra subs they will receive.
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Are there any credible, capable and willing aviation experts who could communicate the message to the publc via the media?
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Are there any credible, capable and willing aviation experts who could communicate the message to the publc via the media?
So the answer is no.
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StevieW:
The change in the FAA's flight and duty time limitations in the 1980s, combined with that predator Carl Icahn taking control of TWA, helped me greatly in my decision to retire early.
In the 1980s FAA's NPRM, the FAA stooges stated, "These are minimum requirements, pilots can obtain more restrictive flight and duty limitations through their collective bargaining processes." Had that statement not been so absurd, it would have been comical.
Of course, the TWA pilots caved in by giving Icahn the new FAA rules in the pilot contract. Gone was the great "2 for 1 plus 1" as well as a minimum rest period of 16 hours when flight time exceeded 8 hours in the preceding duty period. In its place came minimum rest periods and even "deferred" rest periods.
No, because most 'experts' would agree that there is nothing wrong with the current FTLs.
In the 1980s FAA's NPRM, the FAA stooges stated, "These are minimum requirements, pilots can obtain more restrictive flight and duty limitations through their collective bargaining processes." Had that statement not been so absurd, it would have been comical.
Of course, the TWA pilots caved in by giving Icahn the new FAA rules in the pilot contract. Gone was the great "2 for 1 plus 1" as well as a minimum rest period of 16 hours when flight time exceeded 8 hours in the preceding duty period. In its place came minimum rest periods and even "deferred" rest periods.
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I can't actually post a screenshot of the roster here because of Safari/iPad crashing issues but I have concrete evidence of how EASA regs are IMHO criminally negligent as regards to potential fatigue.
At a previous airline who operated under the new EASA regulations it was perfectly legal to complete a 23 duty hour two day layover (six sectors) starting at 04:50 Local on the first day, arriving back in home base at 01:30 AM Local the day after and then be expected to check in for another such tour of duty the very next day at 04:50 AM Local.
Absolutely ludicrous and I have roster copies of many more equally scary things going on in rostering. About 18 months worth.
At a previous airline who operated under the new EASA regulations it was perfectly legal to complete a 23 duty hour two day layover (six sectors) starting at 04:50 Local on the first day, arriving back in home base at 01:30 AM Local the day after and then be expected to check in for another such tour of duty the very next day at 04:50 AM Local.
Absolutely ludicrous and I have roster copies of many more equally scary things going on in rostering. About 18 months worth.
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It may be beneficial to the masses if someone would be prepared to post what they consider a typical months fatiguing roster on here.
Five eleven hour dutues, with only eleven hours break between each.
Thirty six flights in a week, two days off, and another thirty six flights the next week.
Overnight flights that end at 05:00, followed by another at 22:00. Several times each week. Try resting for those. There are many permutations on the 'impossible rest break' theme, and sometimes I think that rostering deliberately seek them out.
Three 16 hour duties in one week, much of which is sat on a wooden plank (jump seat) with zero leg room, no possibility of rest, no possibility of sleep, and no chance of even standing up (ceiling height 1.5m), let alone any exercise.
There are many aspects of aviation that would never be allowed in any other professional industry. And yes, I understand there are other difficult jobs out there, like trawlermen, miners and junior doctors, but that is not exactly the point. As a professional I cannot be expected to perform at my best when I have barely had any sleep, have no idea which airport I have just landed at, or have severe cramp from sitting on a wooden bench for ten hours with enough leg-room for a six-year old. When the engine failure crunch-time comes the SLF will expect me to perform to the highest standards, not have a shaky cramp-wracked and DVT-wracked leg trying to control the yaw.
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Silvertate: I would go much further than your assessment and say that kind of rostering is inhuman and unsafe. It should not be accepted and it should be brought to the attention of as many 'powers that be' as possible. I once had a roster of a Greek island night flight returning at 06.00 ands then a 21.00 report for an African 13.00hr up & down with a 1.00 turn round that always took 2.00. I refused the combination. I said I would do one or the other but not both. If it was the Greek then I would be sick for Africa. You, rostering, have 2 weeks notice so it is your choice. I copied C.P. He agreed and it was solved. Yet for months others had been doing it. Sometimes we are our own worse enemies, and our friends don't help.
To all those wondering what the unions are doing about the issue of pilot health, I got this info from mine Pilot Health Study
It is from the Harvard School of Public Health. I have no pecuniary interest but it is relevant to this discussion and the wider issue of pilot health.
It is from the Harvard School of Public Health. I have no pecuniary interest but it is relevant to this discussion and the wider issue of pilot health.
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I think it would be telling if there was some statistics on sick leave and loss of medical over the past 10 years for example. To see how the change in rostering practises and secondary effects such and stress and security have affected crew.
We aren't machines and even if we were we'd still need proper maintenance.
We aren't machines and even if we were we'd still need proper maintenance.
D & F, I think you're spot on.
The stats for fatigue and sickness just due to being completely wiped out after flying legal but knackering rosters would be interesting to see.
There's no way I will ever go to work when I'm worn out purely because of a fatiguing roster.
The stats for fatigue and sickness just due to being completely wiped out after flying legal but knackering rosters would be interesting to see.
There's no way I will ever go to work when I'm worn out purely because of a fatiguing roster.
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@ Deep and Fast
I think you're on the right track, but unfortunately I have the impression that medical standards have been relaxed to such an extent that this won't show up in the statistics. Nowadays you have to be practically near dead in order to lose your medical.
Na! Call me a cynic, but engines (flex/fixed derated/ATM take offs) are expensive, but pilots 'pay for themselves' these days. Literally!
Even the contrary is true IMHO, as any pilot that gets sick and/or tired (literally and/or figuratively speaking) enough to leave the system will be great for the airlines because;
1) they won't show up in the loss of medical statistics, meaning the 'authorities' can keep on sleeping at the wheel and allow concentration camp Arbeit macht Frei-style FTL's, and
2) they can replace them with cheaper B-Z-scale canon fodder.
That's why nowadays most airlines don't believe in, or facilitate 'preventative maintenance' for humans, things like part time/unpaid leave schemes, ID90 tickets so you can commute and live with your loved ones, or tolerable non-fatiguing rosters, because then their worst case scenario will become reality: healthy and happy crews that will stay until retirement.
I think it would be telling if there was some statistics on sick leave and loss of medical over the past 10 years for example. To see how the change in rostering practises and secondary effects such and stress and security have affected crew.
We aren't machines and even if we were we'd still need proper maintenance.
Even the contrary is true IMHO, as any pilot that gets sick and/or tired (literally and/or figuratively speaking) enough to leave the system will be great for the airlines because;
1) they won't show up in the loss of medical statistics, meaning the 'authorities' can keep on sleeping at the wheel and allow concentration camp Arbeit macht Frei-style FTL's, and
2) they can replace them with cheaper B-Z-scale canon fodder.
That's why nowadays most airlines don't believe in, or facilitate 'preventative maintenance' for humans, things like part time/unpaid leave schemes, ID90 tickets so you can commute and live with your loved ones, or tolerable non-fatiguing rosters, because then their worst case scenario will become reality: healthy and happy crews that will stay until retirement.
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When will we see 'MacDonalds Airways serving Starbuks coffee by cabin crew dressed in sweat shop jeans and pilots from 'pay per view'? Quite soon I fear and the punters will lap up the rip off, but perceived cheap, prices.
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Yes? So? Meaning?
Most of those psycho-tests probably say more about the people designing and using them, as about the people being tested.
The Lufthansa DLR test is even more difficult I've been told, but apparently even that wasn't difficult enough for one particular person...
It's all part of the airline industry's shell game of washing their hands in innocence in case of a smoking hole in the ground and allows the CEO to stand in front of a copy/paste propaganda media and spin the story into something like; "...despite our extremely stringent selection criteria and process...," and "...despite of our robust fatigue risk management...," and "...we could not have seen this coming...," and ...aviation is still one of the safest means of travel..."
It's all blah blah blah, because in the end there's always one convenient group of scapegoats: those magenta line following, min rest/fuel max duty, pay4training, pay4uniform, pay4carpark, pay2fly co-pilot or the babysitter with four stripes sitting to his/her left.
Most of those psycho-tests probably say more about the people designing and using them, as about the people being tested.
The Lufthansa DLR test is even more difficult I've been told, but apparently even that wasn't difficult enough for one particular person...
It's all part of the airline industry's shell game of washing their hands in innocence in case of a smoking hole in the ground and allows the CEO to stand in front of a copy/paste propaganda media and spin the story into something like; "...despite our extremely stringent selection criteria and process...," and "...despite of our robust fatigue risk management...," and "...we could not have seen this coming...," and ...aviation is still one of the safest means of travel..."
It's all blah blah blah, because in the end there's always one convenient group of scapegoats: those magenta line following, min rest/fuel max duty, pay4training, pay4uniform, pay4carpark, pay2fly co-pilot or the babysitter with four stripes sitting to his/her left.
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If guys were on here complaining about the pressures of the EU ruling on delays and compensation causing unacceptable pressures on Airline Pilots then i'd support it one hundred per cent.
From my dealings with EASA FTL for a UK AOC i'm of the view that rosters will improve as we loose the limits on early starts / nights / factorisation on sectors over 7hrs etc. The rules on early starts have always got in the way of a stable decent roster and you only have to look at other threads on roster disruption for support. OK operating 4 earlies is hard work but it's currently done by another UK AOC under FRMS approval and an Irish AOC under sub part Q as well as the rest of Europe.
I can't speak for other airlines but from what i've seem from the UK CAA and other AOC's a very mature view is being taken and AOC's are imposing either their own more restrictive limits and or Union agreements to manage EASA FTL.
It should be said that some aircrew are scrambling to do back to back this and that for 14 days on the bounce so that they can get 10 days off in a row.
Equivalent level of safety has to work both ways....
From my dealings with EASA FTL for a UK AOC i'm of the view that rosters will improve as we loose the limits on early starts / nights / factorisation on sectors over 7hrs etc. The rules on early starts have always got in the way of a stable decent roster and you only have to look at other threads on roster disruption for support. OK operating 4 earlies is hard work but it's currently done by another UK AOC under FRMS approval and an Irish AOC under sub part Q as well as the rest of Europe.
I can't speak for other airlines but from what i've seem from the UK CAA and other AOC's a very mature view is being taken and AOC's are imposing either their own more restrictive limits and or Union agreements to manage EASA FTL.
It should be said that some aircrew are scrambling to do back to back this and that for 14 days on the bounce so that they can get 10 days off in a row.
Equivalent level of safety has to work both ways....
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In mid 80's I was in selection for a DEP into an national airline that had already paid for my CPL training 10 years previously. In other words I had jumped through their selection hoops and they had paid for my CPL. The market collapsed and I entered their holding pool. Eventually I went my own way and then applied later on as DEP with 6500hrs under my belt. No matter; the physco babble brigade were in charge and I had to jump through new hoops. The whole group, 20+ pilots, were up in arms about the physco tests. To all of us the question/answer tests were BS. We were all tried & tested airline/helicopter/ex-military pilots. Half were rejected and I rejected the offer. It was astonishing. Utter utter BS as a selection process. The physco selection process guarantees nothing. I have read the published criteria for many national carriers on their application forms. It is gut wrenching manure. I've met many guys who were rejected and those who were selected. My mind boggled at the choices & rejections. If this was a declaration of physco testing success then it was surely a case of the nutters being in charge of the asylum.
RAT 5, I also had the same experience in the late 1990s. I couldn't believe the physco babble "selection" procedures.
With another airline in the 1980s I was Pilot Training Manager on the selection board (along with the Chief Pilot and his Deputy). We used to interview them and then put them through a sim profile to see how they fared.
On the interview I used to sit there and think "How would I feel flying a night Paphos with this pilot?". Whilst not claiming to be perfect we achieved an excellent success rate in our simple selection procedure.
With another airline in the 1980s I was Pilot Training Manager on the selection board (along with the Chief Pilot and his Deputy). We used to interview them and then put them through a sim profile to see how they fared.
On the interview I used to sit there and think "How would I feel flying a night Paphos with this pilot?". Whilst not claiming to be perfect we achieved an excellent success rate in our simple selection procedure.
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Many years ago, I recall reading about one of TWA's pioneer pilots. I think it was Pilot No.2, who flew for TWA for 40 years without incident, and upon retiring, decided to take the "Aptitude and Stanine Test" as a lark. He failed miserably...