Airline pilots 'buckling under unacceptable pressures'?
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737er:
Sadly, that spilt is far worse today than it was in the "golden age" when I was a TWA pilot and before the commuter airlines really took hold.
And, even in that so-called golden age, there was hardly any brotherhood between ALPA pilot groups.
Early on, I figured out, that at my own airline but for the seniority system, my fellow pilots would have been ruthless in gaining a seat or better pairing.
Sadly, if pilots just would learn to stick together, we could correct all of the above.
And, even in that so-called golden age, there was hardly any brotherhood between ALPA pilot groups.
Early on, I figured out, that at my own airline but for the seniority system, my fellow pilots would have been ruthless in gaining a seat or better pairing.
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The computer says "yes!"
The latest stunt from one loco is start at 0500 fly two sectors then five hours split duty rest in the crew room ( effectively an office with crews coming and going) then another two and a half hour sector followed by returning to base on the aircraft as a passenger.
Total duty time 19 hours !
It is my opinion that the management are not usually this unreasonable but the pressures of fast expansion, the squeeze of the rapidly approaching pilot shortage and a crewing department that is under staffed results in the rostering computer producing rosters that are legal but take no account of the fact that humans are not machines. It is the classic case of the unmonitored computer saying "yes".
The root cause of this problem lies with EASA who introduced FTL rules that like most of the rubbish that comes from the lumanaries of Cologne is ill conceived and driven by those who's nine to five office routine in a public service environment makes them unfit to regulate a 24 hour a day safety critical industry because of their remoteness from it.
It has taken the the tragic deaths of those on the German wings Airbus for EASA to wake up to fact there is a problem but will they have the perceptiveness and integrity to know they have only to look in the mirror to see the organisation who's lamentable lack foresight and appropriate legislation is the root cause of the problem.
Total duty time 19 hours !
It is my opinion that the management are not usually this unreasonable but the pressures of fast expansion, the squeeze of the rapidly approaching pilot shortage and a crewing department that is under staffed results in the rostering computer producing rosters that are legal but take no account of the fact that humans are not machines. It is the classic case of the unmonitored computer saying "yes".
The root cause of this problem lies with EASA who introduced FTL rules that like most of the rubbish that comes from the lumanaries of Cologne is ill conceived and driven by those who's nine to five office routine in a public service environment makes them unfit to regulate a 24 hour a day safety critical industry because of their remoteness from it.
It has taken the the tragic deaths of those on the German wings Airbus for EASA to wake up to fact there is a problem but will they have the perceptiveness and integrity to know they have only to look in the mirror to see the organisation who's lamentable lack foresight and appropriate legislation is the root cause of the problem.
You pilots, in the meaning of as a professional group of people doing the same job, will only achieve the necessary changes if you go public full way.
Mangement and regulating authorities will do nothing on behalf of individual complaints and recommendation. Most unions are toothless, and it would be interesting anyway how many pilots are organized in unions. Nothing will change with threads like this on airline forums or with private blogs or email exchanges.
It is the travelling public which can change things.
Do not be mistaken, they buy the cheapest ticket if available, but they did not invent them. The cheap tickets are a result from competition of the airlines for the biggest market growth and the highest profit, and you yourself took part by financing this system with increased work hours, decreased working conditions and decreasing salaries. Do not make the travelling public responsible for the misery of present employment terms. They do not know about your misery, that does not imply that they would not care. For them you are still skygods with a dream job and a dream salary. You have to open their eyes that their view of your job and your person is wrong, that the times of adequately paid skygod is long gone. To achieve that goal you have to climb down from your ladder and you have to side with them. You both are sitting in the same alloy tube and you both want to reach the destination in a professional and safe way. The public will pay for the necessary changes, as they did for airbags and other safety improvements in their cars. It is a question of information and communication of the necessary changes, not the cost of them.
You yourself against management without the public and the regulating authorities are on lost ground.
Mangement and regulating authorities will do nothing on behalf of individual complaints and recommendation. Most unions are toothless, and it would be interesting anyway how many pilots are organized in unions. Nothing will change with threads like this on airline forums or with private blogs or email exchanges.
It is the travelling public which can change things.
Do not be mistaken, they buy the cheapest ticket if available, but they did not invent them. The cheap tickets are a result from competition of the airlines for the biggest market growth and the highest profit, and you yourself took part by financing this system with increased work hours, decreased working conditions and decreasing salaries. Do not make the travelling public responsible for the misery of present employment terms. They do not know about your misery, that does not imply that they would not care. For them you are still skygods with a dream job and a dream salary. You have to open their eyes that their view of your job and your person is wrong, that the times of adequately paid skygod is long gone. To achieve that goal you have to climb down from your ladder and you have to side with them. You both are sitting in the same alloy tube and you both want to reach the destination in a professional and safe way. The public will pay for the necessary changes, as they did for airbags and other safety improvements in their cars. It is a question of information and communication of the necessary changes, not the cost of them.
You yourself against management without the public and the regulating authorities are on lost ground.
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The truth is, this is a result of airlines discovering the benefit of abusing the seniority system we cling onto so dearly.
Crew will sacrifice everything to get onto a seniority list and once on it will continue to put up with the abuse to remain on it.
P2F wouldn't exist if pilots were free to follow a career that suited a changing lifestyle over possibly 40yrs, what other jobs have people pay the company they work for to be employed???
Unfortunately we will never get it, so things will continue as they have done. "I'll never get a command without seniority"
Crew will sacrifice everything to get onto a seniority list and once on it will continue to put up with the abuse to remain on it.
P2F wouldn't exist if pilots were free to follow a career that suited a changing lifestyle over possibly 40yrs, what other jobs have people pay the company they work for to be employed???
Unfortunately we will never get it, so things will continue as they have done. "I'll never get a command without seniority"
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Playing devils advocate - but you guys are limited to around 900 hours per year?
Many people in demanding jobs will do 900 hours in 3 or 4 months! plus commute! With earlier starts, and later finishes, and possibly for less money. I know 'cos im one of them.
And dont give me the
about "responsibility for the lives of bla bla bla" - you are just paid to drive the safest form of transport on the planet!
So, you work half the hours as the rest of us, you are "officially" the highest paid profession in the country, and we keep hearing that you 'do it for the love of flying'.
And you wonder why nobody pays attention to you whining?
:-)
Many people in demanding jobs will do 900 hours in 3 or 4 months! plus commute! With earlier starts, and later finishes, and possibly for less money. I know 'cos im one of them.
And dont give me the
about "responsibility for the lives of bla bla bla" - you are just paid to drive the safest form of transport on the planet!So, you work half the hours as the rest of us, you are "officially" the highest paid profession in the country, and we keep hearing that you 'do it for the love of flying'.
And you wonder why nobody pays attention to you whining?
:-)
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CCA
To paraphrase Wiston Chuchill " seniority is the worst possible system, except for all the others ".
Within a system were all employees have to regularly pass performance checks or get fired how else do you run a system that gives recognition for long service?
If you have any other ideas I would like to hear them.
On the issues of P2F I have to agree with you, as soon as you step onto an aircraft that has passengers as a crew memberyou should be paid as a employee, this is because your legal status in terms of responsibility to the passengers is questionable if you are not employed or contracted to the airline as a servant of that airline, if you are paying to fly effectively they are providing you with a service and do have a duty to you !
Clunk1001.
You make the opposition point very well, those who want to roll out the 900 hour rule and ignore the fact that the time you spend on the employers business is more than double this !
Within a system were all employees have to regularly pass performance checks or get fired how else do you run a system that gives recognition for long service?
If you have any other ideas I would like to hear them.
On the issues of P2F I have to agree with you, as soon as you step onto an aircraft that has passengers as a crew memberyou should be paid as a employee, this is because your legal status in terms of responsibility to the passengers is questionable if you are not employed or contracted to the airline as a servant of that airline, if you are paying to fly effectively they are providing you with a service and do have a duty to you !
Clunk1001.
You make the opposition point very well, those who want to roll out the 900 hour rule and ignore the fact that the time you spend on the employers business is more than double this !
Last edited by A and C; 10th May 2015 at 10:30.
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And dont give me the about "responsibility for the lives of bla bla bla" - you are just paid to drive the safest form of transport on the planet!
about "responsibility for the lives of bla bla bla" - you are just paid to drive the safest form of transport on the planet!
Last edited by CaptainProp; 10th May 2015 at 10:40.
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Clunck, regardless of what others think, or perceive, a great many are faltering, buckling, struggling, leaving. Why? Workload, stress, physiological realities of a low oxygen environment and the fact that we are just not designed to sustain safely the current workloads.
I couldn't care less what the public, regulator, employers think, the moment I know I'm not able to perform my duties to the required standard due to fatigue/illness is when I am OBLIGATED by law to remove myself from a roster.
Whilst at work, I can't nip out for a breath of fresh air and perspective, I can't take a couple of minutes of me time, I'm singularly unable to mentally switch off, and in that respect there are very very few professions where you are unable to mentally and emotionally take a break.
Yes the perception is that we are a bunch of button pushers, but behind that perception is the reality...which is far removed from the simplistic perception.
I couldn't care less what the public, regulator, employers think, the moment I know I'm not able to perform my duties to the required standard due to fatigue/illness is when I am OBLIGATED by law to remove myself from a roster.
Whilst at work, I can't nip out for a breath of fresh air and perspective, I can't take a couple of minutes of me time, I'm singularly unable to mentally switch off, and in that respect there are very very few professions where you are unable to mentally and emotionally take a break.
Yes the perception is that we are a bunch of button pushers, but behind that perception is the reality...which is far removed from the simplistic perception.
Clunk1001,
You have demonstrated the biggest obstacle to airline pilots mental health being taken seriously..... total ignorance. It is only 900 hours in the UK, most other places are 1000 hours and as stated above this is FLYING HOURS. For instance this next week for me is Passenger to simulator training, two days in the simulator, passenger home, one day off, 4 days office safety work before two days off. In this I have NO flying hours so don't tick anything off the 1000 total.
Personally the hardest thing I find about this job is the chopping and changing between early and late duties. This was easy to handle when I was 21 years old, now that I am slightly older than this it is becoming increasingly hard to handle. Throw in a couple of young kids, family ill health, financial pressures, 6 monthly checks which can impact your career, a yearly medical that can end your career for a number of reasons and the pressure can start to build. All you need then is some ******** to tell you how easy you have it as you can only work 900 hours a year and they work twice as hard.
You have demonstrated the biggest obstacle to airline pilots mental health being taken seriously..... total ignorance. It is only 900 hours in the UK, most other places are 1000 hours and as stated above this is FLYING HOURS. For instance this next week for me is Passenger to simulator training, two days in the simulator, passenger home, one day off, 4 days office safety work before two days off. In this I have NO flying hours so don't tick anything off the 1000 total.
Personally the hardest thing I find about this job is the chopping and changing between early and late duties. This was easy to handle when I was 21 years old, now that I am slightly older than this it is becoming increasingly hard to handle. Throw in a couple of young kids, family ill health, financial pressures, 6 monthly checks which can impact your career, a yearly medical that can end your career for a number of reasons and the pressure can start to build. All you need then is some ******** to tell you how easy you have it as you can only work 900 hours a year and they work twice as hard.
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Rex
There is a difference between a troll and someone playing devils advocate, it is vital that we know and understand the tactics that MoL and his like will roll out to undermine the case for better working conditions and if Clunk1001 raises This awareness it is OK by me.
As long as Clunk1001 is playing devils advocate his contribution to this thread is welcome.
As long as Clunk1001 is playing devils advocate his contribution to this thread is welcome.
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Rex
It is not healthy to have a one sided debate wiith all agreeing and not considering the position that the opposition will take to this question.
Scotland has just turned itself into a one party state and the lack of checks and balances to the ruling party's policy's will be something the scots will come to regret...........
What I want to see on prune is polite, balanced and lively debate, it will no doubt raise views that I don't hold, but that is no bad thing.............. Now I should return to the subject of the thread but I'm too fatigued !
Scotland has just turned itself into a one party state and the lack of checks and balances to the ruling party's policy's will be something the scots will come to regret...........
What I want to see on prune is polite, balanced and lively debate, it will no doubt raise views that I don't hold, but that is no bad thing.............. Now I should return to the subject of the thread but I'm too fatigued !
Clunk is talking through his backside and is obviously a troll.
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Within a system were all employees have to regularly pass performance checks or get fired how else do you run a system that gives recognition for long service?
The point being companies wouldn't have people handcuffed to a seniority system unable to leave for fear of battling it out at the bottom of a new company as the most junior pilot when you might have 5, 10, 15+ thousand hours.
It's steadily getting worse at the bottom, the problem is it's creeping higher and higher and the companies are realising that very few senior crew will leave as they is no way they can afford to start again.
Think about it, would you leave if the company cut your pay by 20% tomorrow and if so where would you go? Apparently the trend is it's a 100% pay cut to P2F at the bottom of a new company.
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Fox - i hope you had a great sleep. Career choice, is the answer to your question. Same reason why after a 22 hour day i open my laptop and start responding to client's emails and i ask the question "why am i NOT going to bed?". Do you want to do another job? We all have within us the ability to move careers. Its easier to move out of aviation than it is to move into aviation.
Rex - i am being deliberately obtuse, to highlight the perception of the profession, and to highlihgt the biggest challenge in bringing change. I work my @rse off to run my business, and 80 hours a week is not uncommon - but i wouldnt (and couldnt) work as a commercial pilot. Not so much becasue of the hours, early starts/ late finishes etc, its the uncertainty that the inflexible rosters, unstable basing, and generally unstable companies which would break me. You do all have my greatest respect.
You cant win this argument on hours, or going to bed at 12 noon, being tired, being underpaid....welcome to the real world! Your industry is regulated and all these complaints fall on deaf ears as the public/politicians trust the CAA to ensure your working conditions are safe. You probably can make headway with an argument on pressures of work/life balance.
...but then again - if you wanted a proper work/life balance you wouldnt have chosen to be a pilot.
Rex - i am being deliberately obtuse, to highlight the perception of the profession, and to highlihgt the biggest challenge in bringing change. I work my @rse off to run my business, and 80 hours a week is not uncommon - but i wouldnt (and couldnt) work as a commercial pilot. Not so much becasue of the hours, early starts/ late finishes etc, its the uncertainty that the inflexible rosters, unstable basing, and generally unstable companies which would break me. You do all have my greatest respect.
You cant win this argument on hours, or going to bed at 12 noon, being tired, being underpaid....welcome to the real world! Your industry is regulated and all these complaints fall on deaf ears as the public/politicians trust the CAA to ensure your working conditions are safe. You probably can make headway with an argument on pressures of work/life balance.
...but then again - if you wanted a proper work/life balance you wouldnt have chosen to be a pilot.
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Clunk, do you drive home drunk? Do you drive home tired? I assume if your tired, you behave in a sensible fashion and take a nap, its what I do when I'm tired and on the road, I pull over and have a rest as after all being tired has been proven to be more debilitating and detrimental than being drunk, certainly from the perspective of judgement and decision making. Hmmmm now, what do I do when I'm suddenly over-come with that same tiredness 15 minutes from landing? I'll just pull over and take a nap.......
I've had the benefit of working in other areas outside of aviation, and I've worked the hours you speak about, the big difference is I've ALWAYS had to opportunity to catch up on my rest, in my own bed, timezone, comfort zone, unlike things have become in aviation today where cumulatively, we don't get a chance to recover.
I now consider sick days as a means of fatigue mitigation, when strictly speaking the rostering provisions where I work should take into account my cumulative fatigue.
I've had the benefit of working in other areas outside of aviation, and I've worked the hours you speak about, the big difference is I've ALWAYS had to opportunity to catch up on my rest, in my own bed, timezone, comfort zone, unlike things have become in aviation today where cumulatively, we don't get a chance to recover.
I now consider sick days as a means of fatigue mitigation, when strictly speaking the rostering provisions where I work should take into account my cumulative fatigue.
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I now consider sick days as a means of fatigue mitigation, when strictly speaking the rostering provisions where I work should take into account my cumulative fatigue.
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haughtney1- i assume when you've experienced the "debilitating" fatigue you reported it? And you inform your company that your sick day is directly due to fatigue?
No?
Well then, officially your roster is just fine, and there isnt a problem with fatigue.
No?
Well then, officially your roster is just fine, and there isnt a problem with fatigue.