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Airline pilots 'buckling under unacceptable pressures'?

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Airline pilots 'buckling under unacceptable pressures'?

Old 10th May 2015, 13:12
  #81 (permalink)  
 
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Clunk, one of the interesting things about engaging in a discussion such as this is that very quickly you get to gauge someone's motivations, to me yours are fairly clear, and rather than being a devils advocate, you are more of an agent provocateur, so in that spirit my reply to you is based on that.
Is reading and comprehension a challenge Clunk? Do you struggle with English as a first language perhaps? If so maybe you need to brush up on your reading skills as I stated previously what I am obliged by law to do.
To simplify my answer, YES, and YES via an inhouse fatigue monitoring programme, which allegedly is then merely logged and then discarded as the alternative would result in the flying programme collapsing.
Clear enough for you? Make sense now? Maybe you could shuffle off back to your CAP371 for wannabe airline managers programme now
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Old 10th May 2015, 13:40
  #82 (permalink)  
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Rex - i am being deliberately obtuse, to highlight the perception of the profession, and to highlihgt the biggest challenge in bringing change. I work my @rse off to run my business, and 80 hours a week is not uncommon - but i wouldnt (and couldnt) work as a commercial pilot. Not so much becasue of the hours, early starts/ late finishes etc, its the uncertainty that the inflexible rosters, unstable basing, and generally unstable companies which would break me. You do all have my greatest respect.

I’d been flying for around 15 years, and held a class 1 for about 3 years. I’d been job hunting for about a year or so after finishing my training (CPL/MEIR/JOC/MCC) when the CAA pulled my medical completely for nearly 8 months - I couldn’t even fly on a PPL. After 1000s of pounds worth of medical tests I eventually got handed the OML medical back.

Shortly afterwards, I stopped pursuing the flying career. And I kind of wish it had happened before I spent 40k on training
Weather was utterly attrocious. Just driving past the airport earlier was tretchrous enough - as a CPL/IR with 20 years flying in this area I wouldnt have gone anywhere near the sky today.

And it was forecast!
...but then again - if you wanted a proper work/life balance you wouldnt have chosen to be a pilot.

Looks like you chose to be a pilot too Clunk as these were all your quotes, but you give the impression of being otherwise.

So what is it 15 or 20 ?
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Old 10th May 2015, 16:04
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Yes I did choose to be a pilot, its 22 years flying this year (started at 17), I didnt make it to airlines, and went back to my previous industry.

Im putting forward the viewpoint of a non-airline employee, who has a little knowledge of aviation (a little knowledge is a dangerous thing i hear you say).

It doesnt make the point of view invalid.

The problem some on here have is that if youve not got srtipes on your shoulder then your view is irrelevant. But its precisely those without stripes on their shoulders that are the cause of your issues. So I suggest you learn to engage better.
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Old 10th May 2015, 16:23
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The joys of an internet forum. Non-professional pilots (and non pilots) chirping the most....

Now getting back to the discussion...
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Old 10th May 2015, 16:36
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Professional pilots can discuss "airline pilots buckling under unacceptable pressures" amongst yourselves until the cows come home. Although its not really a proper discussion if there's only one point of view spread over 5 pages of a thread.

If youre going to make a difference, you need to discuss it with, and convince the people who aren't professional pilots.

Otherwise its just a group of people anecdotally whinging about their lot in life.
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Old 10th May 2015, 16:59
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Clunk - oh, dear

Many people in demanding jobs will do 900 hours in 3 or 4 months! plus commute! With earlier starts, and later finishes, and possibly for less money. I know 'cos im one of them.
This is the sort of level of knowledge about airline flying I would expect from someone who has never flown and reads the Daily Mail - oh, and after 20,000 hours I started a very successful business that employs quite a few people ..... you're right about a little knowledge ... and if you don't know what's wrong with the above I'll leave you to find out
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Old 10th May 2015, 17:18
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If you could influence the powers that be who define our work conditions, we would be glad to.
Unfortunately, your POV is severely limited by the very fact that you haven't lived the life of a pilot.
I cannot even begin to imagine the risks and challenges a business owner has to overcome to run a viable business. I request you to give us the same due regard.
It's not just about the hours. Those are, as you say, regulated ,by a regulator. Time and time again, a regulators decisions are dictated more by commercial interests rather than safety, which should be the prime directive for them.

If you really want to talk about hours, the core issue, as someone has rightly pointed out, is the amount of UNregulated hours we are required to put in. That to me is akin to the dark matter that no one really knows about, but definitely plays a pivotal role in how the universe works.

I cannot think of any other occupation, where you have to be mentally alert during the complete duration of duty, with no break. The time zone changes wreak havoc on our body clocks and after just 7 years in this profession, I am beginning to feel the physiological impact, despite being a moderately fit individual.

The advent of this ruthless FDTL target policy, will, I am certain, lead to a significantly reduced average life expectancy for pilots.

And your argument that we should just walk away from our job is facetious at best. Where exactly do you think our skills can be transferred with, if not the same, but even a marginally reduced income level?

Your management skills are easily transferable, should you choose to sell your business and become a salaried employee. Our skills, while you might call a form of management, are not the core skills we hone on a daily basis. So it is not easy to switch jobs/careers midstream and sustain a semblance of financial security which this affords (to the lucky ones atleast).
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Old 10th May 2015, 17:28
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Ok back to thread...

No. I dont think any of you are under unacceptable pressures. And clearly neither do your managers, nor the airline owners, nor the regulators, nor the politicians, nor the public at large (both daily mail and non-daily mail readers)....basically anyone that counts then. Otherwise things wouldnt be getting worse for you, which i believed they were...arent they? Certainly my view of the airline pilot profession is that its rapidly on a downward slide? Happy to be corrected here if Im wrong.

My point is that the pilot community is failing to communicate the situation.
Presenting an argument for the other side can help generate some debate.....sometimes.



Edit- posted before i read av8r76's sensible post.
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Old 10th May 2015, 17:58
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Quote:
...but then again - if you wanted a proper work/life balance you wouldnt have chosen to be a pilot.


The problem is when many of us embarked on this career, it did offer a reasonable work/life balance. Many airlines now drive their crews to the absolute limits of the regulations and beyond in some cases (or they just change the regulations where the airline and the governing body are essentially part of the State.) The co-pilot seat has become a revenue stream and not a place of reward and pride after years of honing ones craft with that seat as the ultimate goal. It has become a seat of economic ability, paid for by the occupant or by parents co-signing for a house sized loan and then the reality sets in. You are by design financially trapped in a job that is not what you hoped it would be or the general public imagine it is.

Last edited by flite idol; 10th May 2015 at 18:39.
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Old 10th May 2015, 20:35
  #90 (permalink)  
 
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You guys dont have the monopoly on chronic fatigue, but when challenged the general response here is akin to the vietnam vet's "you dont KNOW man - you werent THERE man".
It's a pilot forum, we're discussing pilots' issues here. No one said other professions are not under pressure and have their own struggles.

Well, we do know that you're officially in the highest paid profession (according to the UK's office for national statistics).
This comment just takes my breath away. Whatever some ignorant list tells you it clearly shows your lack of knowledge about the modern aviation training / airline business.
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Old 10th May 2015, 20:49
  #91 (permalink)  
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All right folks, let's settle down. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. There are starting to be too many violations of the ROE.



No personal attacks.
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Old 10th May 2015, 20:57
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172 driver- I'm pretty aware of the state of the industry, especially in regards to low hour cadet and FO ts&cs. But it's not just 'some list' - they are THE official government figures (for the past two years I believe). And the point I'm unsuccessfully making is in relation to the growing gap between the outside perception of the pilot profession (see my above posts) and the facts.

Yes it's a pilots forum - but it isn't the pilots who have the power to change things. Which is why considering the views of others (however misinformed) is the key to changing things.
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Old 10th May 2015, 21:06
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clunt1001

You guys don't have the monopoly on chronic fatigue.

Very true, Clunt, very true. When I worked in London, I often saw overworked office managers asleep at their desks at 20:00 or so (not 04:00, but 20:00.). But despite the claimed 'fatigue' nobody died.

Is the penny beginning to drop?
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Old 10th May 2015, 21:27
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utter drivel
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Old 10th May 2015, 21:33
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The exchange with clunk1001 points to the big dilemma the pilot group is in. The overall working conditions of the pilot group has changed dramatically to the bad side, but nobody except yourself, your management and a few informed outsiders know about that situation. Your management will not change anything for you if it costs money, except they are forced to do so by regulations.

There is no need to like Clunk1001's way of telling things, but is he wrong? The public and the regulator sees the pilot job exactly like clunk1001 is telling you, and as long as this perception is present, nothing will change for you. As I said before, you can complain all day long on forums, blogs or within your group, that does not change the perception which people outside the pilots group have. It does not help either when a single pilots pops up and states his point to his individual management, he will loose big time and nobody is taking notice of it.

You have to get yourself organized first in small groups, which themselves get organized in national and international clusters. Existing union structures might be helpfull, but not everywhere and not anytime. You have to speak in one language about the same case with the same desire for improvement, and you have to adress the correct people with it. Those people are not other pilots with the same problems, and it's neither the management nor the regulators, not until the final phase. Get public attention for your problems, talk to your customers, talk to the public through journalists, and talk to the politicians through your local party people. The German "Vereinigung Cockpit" in itself is a good example, but unfortunately singled out due to missing international fruitfull partnership.

It is not an easy task and not done in a few years, but it can be done if the right people are willing to lead the way and most of the pilots assist with membership, funding and information. The existing unions will have not much choice, they either have to follow the will of the pilot group or they will be replaced by other better representative newer organisations.

Arguing against clunk1001 is a waste of time, not due to his way of posting, but because he can't do anything for your case as I can't do as well. I see his arguing position more on your side than against your case, but it is easier to counter his words than adressing the correct people.

Last edited by RetiredF4; 11th May 2015 at 04:57.
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Old 10th May 2015, 21:56
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I am not an ATPL - only dink around with delightful 80 year-old biplanes (and pilots of the same vintage!) We co-exist in an aviation Disneyland, so to speak.

However, a good friend is an ATPL, so am privy to the realities.

Anyway, I think RetiredF4's post is an excellent one. PpruNe is a good resource for those involved in aviation, but preaching to the converted (or sparring with the non) is a relatively benign exercise.

How many here got behind Captain Sullenberger when he really tried to expose your concerns to the regulators and Joe/Jane Public? Just curious.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GZj1lU4Dos
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Old 11th May 2015, 06:44
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Excelent post f4.

Sorry if i put any backs up. I was putting accross a view of what ''most' non pilots think. (Not actually my view - just an alternative view).
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Old 11th May 2015, 09:35
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The ONS study on earnings and the position of pilots on it was flawed as it was only based on a small sample. Now a full and frank survey of CEO salary and bonuses as well as the group elite surrounding them would be a more interesting read.

Expose the greed!
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Old 11th May 2015, 10:41
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haughtney1- i assume when you've experienced the "debilitating" fatigue you reported it? And you inform your company that your sick day is directly due to fatigue?
The problem with that is the mandatory visit to the company doctor if you do call fatigued. Much easier to call sick as there is no requirement to visit the doc, stupid but true.
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Old 11th May 2015, 11:14
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Not stupid, it's drawn on the airline big picture. Fatigue doesn't exist if you make it easier to call sick. The F word is a no no.
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