Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France
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Centaurus, Pace
Interesting and good valid comments, I posted something similar in post 1441
Well blame the authorities for this situation, it was not that long ago when they more or less scrapped the self improver route, (PPL, Instructor, CPL, Turboprop, 1500 hours later ATPL and maybe the right seat of a jet) in the UK in favour of young button pushing wannabes coming out with a licence after 200 hours !!!!!
Interesting and good valid comments, I posted something similar in post 1441
banjodrone
The pool of pilots with such vast pre-airline experience simply does not exist in Europe. In the US you have a very active GA sector to get pilots from even at a time when the first Vietnam-era pilots are starting to retire. For that reason, in Europe we've mostly had to rely on pilot selection by raw aptitude, especially in the last 10-15 years or so, rather than the ability to recruit seasoned experts for their first airline positions. It's just how things are.
The pool of pilots with such vast pre-airline experience simply does not exist in Europe. In the US you have a very active GA sector to get pilots from even at a time when the first Vietnam-era pilots are starting to retire. For that reason, in Europe we've mostly had to rely on pilot selection by raw aptitude, especially in the last 10-15 years or so, rather than the ability to recruit seasoned experts for their first airline positions. It's just how things are.
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3. And, last but not least, no one ever once mentions the 30 second ear piercing alarm triggered by the Captain after entering the emergency code on the door..
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Quote:
It is therefore urgent to ensure that all air carriers and regulatory authorities are immediately aware of the issues and can take action that they see fit to mitigate the actual safety risk to their passengers and aircraft
You should read what I wrote again. It is up to the air carriers and regulatory authorities to decide what action they need to take to mitigate the actual risk. Some like you may say we do not believe this is a problem, or the measures we have in place are sufficient, or we really can't think of anything we can do to mitigate the risk. But they MUST be told where the hole in their cheese is - as their passengers safety is their first priority (as we are always told).
So the air carriers and regulatory authorities are told - the evidence seems to show that this was not an accident and one of the contributory factors that enabled the intended crash was that a junior first officer, apparently with medical issues, was enabled by existing procedures and systems to lock the captain out of the cockpit. You may wish to consider your current cockpit security procedures.
It is the regulatory authorities who have decided what they think needs to be done. Which like the locked cockpit doors may be an incorrect reaction in some people's view. But it is their responsibility. Delaying telling the operators and regulatory authorities of a real hazard is not allowed even under ICAO Annex 13.
It is therefore urgent to ensure that all air carriers and regulatory authorities are immediately aware of the issues and can take action that they see fit to mitigate the actual safety risk to their passengers and aircraft
Whoa there, runaway steed. And what 'actions' may they be? And how will they 'mitigate risks'?
The whole problem is that nobody knows what the 'right actions' may be. The cockpit door policy post 9-11 was not fully thought through, as we can all see. (Some of us did warn the authorities.) So why rush in with new proposals, when these new ideas are equally fraught with unintended consequences? See my post here.
(A reply to my post.)
http://www.pprune.org/8924209-post2552.html
And nobody has replied to my primary question yet.
Would you want a nuclear power plant to recruit anyone from the streets, give them a few weeks training, and then place them in charge of the nuclear power plant's control room? And give them full authority to overpower the power station's highly trained controllers, whenever they feel like it?
That is what the CAA and various airlines are proposing. Is this sensible? Has anyone thought this through?
The whole problem is that nobody knows what the 'right actions' may be. The cockpit door policy post 9-11 was not fully thought through, as we can all see. (Some of us did warn the authorities.) So why rush in with new proposals, when these new ideas are equally fraught with unintended consequences? See my post here.
(A reply to my post.)
http://www.pprune.org/8924209-post2552.html
And nobody has replied to my primary question yet.
Would you want a nuclear power plant to recruit anyone from the streets, give them a few weeks training, and then place them in charge of the nuclear power plant's control room? And give them full authority to overpower the power station's highly trained controllers, whenever they feel like it?
That is what the CAA and various airlines are proposing. Is this sensible? Has anyone thought this through?
So the air carriers and regulatory authorities are told - the evidence seems to show that this was not an accident and one of the contributory factors that enabled the intended crash was that a junior first officer, apparently with medical issues, was enabled by existing procedures and systems to lock the captain out of the cockpit. You may wish to consider your current cockpit security procedures.
It is the regulatory authorities who have decided what they think needs to be done. Which like the locked cockpit doors may be an incorrect reaction in some people's view. But it is their responsibility. Delaying telling the operators and regulatory authorities of a real hazard is not allowed even under ICAO Annex 13.
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thank you
To Ian W - thank you for the explanatory post. Yes, there is a responsibility to communicate as you have described.
Perhaps the problem is one of perception, in that the media, the rumor-writers and readers, and so, miss the important contextual words and limitations, the "preliminary-ness" of the message as you described it.
And/or, to some extent, perhaps the messengers omitted some, or most, or nearly all, of the sense of "preliminary-ness".
But what you have said about how the system is supposed to work in such a factual context, spot on, and again, "Gratitude."
Perhaps the problem is one of perception, in that the media, the rumor-writers and readers, and so, miss the important contextual words and limitations, the "preliminary-ness" of the message as you described it.
And/or, to some extent, perhaps the messengers omitted some, or most, or nearly all, of the sense of "preliminary-ness".
But what you have said about how the system is supposed to work in such a factual context, spot on, and again, "Gratitude."
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Under German employment law ... Even doctors could not step in as the data would be protected.
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Perhaps after all of this discussion we may find that a person's interaction with other crew members and the "gut level" feelings they induce may be the most sensitive test of their mental condition. One interaction should not be conclusive but if several associates provide the same opinion then perhaps deeper investigation is warranted. I know that our airline had "Professional Standards" representatives in the union branch who you could approach to discretely report any undesirable attitudes by other crew members. Reports could then be dealt with on a peer-to-peer level but ultimately they could also be escalated to the company. This system was introduced to deal with some of the disastrous CRM failures of the period.
I know that personally I found out far more about other crew member's personal lives during long flights and beers in the bar on layovers than I wanted to know. My joke was that the worst words you could hear on the flight deck on a long flight was the Captain saying "Did I tell you what my wife's lawyer did to me last week?".
On one occasion I was able to help somebody out as a result of the bar debrief. The co-pilot I had been flying with for a couple of weeks suddenly became distracted and less chatty. Over a beer it transpired that his sister was involved in a bad case of domestic violence and they were arranging an escape from the husband, the co-pilot was concerned that the husband would try to take revenge while he was away. Being relatively new with the company he was concerned that his case would not justify company compassion. Easy fix, at end of trip I walked in with him to see a flight manager buddy and he walked out with time-off until the immediate problem was taken care of. I hope present airlines would be so flexible and sensible.
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I know that personally I found out far more about other crew member's personal lives during long flights and beers in the bar on layovers than I wanted to know. My joke was that the worst words you could hear on the flight deck on a long flight was the Captain saying "Did I tell you what my wife's lawyer did to me last week?".
On one occasion I was able to help somebody out as a result of the bar debrief. The co-pilot I had been flying with for a couple of weeks suddenly became distracted and less chatty. Over a beer it transpired that his sister was involved in a bad case of domestic violence and they were arranging an escape from the husband, the co-pilot was concerned that the husband would try to take revenge while he was away. Being relatively new with the company he was concerned that his case would not justify company compassion. Easy fix, at end of trip I walked in with him to see a flight manager buddy and he walked out with time-off until the immediate problem was taken care of. I hope present airlines would be so flexible and sensible.
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Centaur's may be bringing a fair comment about flightdeck culture overall, but to suggest bullying is limited to trainers, and more specifically modern trainers, is utterly wrong. Bullying in the cockpit has reduced drastically over the years, but where it persists, is not specific to trainers.
What I think has changed is the reduction in life experience and thus the ability of very young FOs to cope with jibing and banter. I saw this first hand in another loco, where most of the FOs whined about some of the captains (and one TRE and one line shag more than most). There was nothing wrong with the captains; it was the FOs with very large but very fragile egos who simply could not take a well intended joke and crumple under the slightest comment That seems to be an issue with a large proportion, though far from all, cadets. The older FOs, including cadets, tend to have better life experience to equip them with a more appropriate sense of humour and balance of confidence and humility. I feel that it strongly supports a minimum age policy of 25, though Lubitz was older than that. If Lubitz had been older when he started, maybe he would have been better equipped to handle the pressures of flying and his health would not have suffered. That is, of course, speculative.
What I think has changed is the reduction in life experience and thus the ability of very young FOs to cope with jibing and banter. I saw this first hand in another loco, where most of the FOs whined about some of the captains (and one TRE and one line shag more than most). There was nothing wrong with the captains; it was the FOs with very large but very fragile egos who simply could not take a well intended joke and crumple under the slightest comment That seems to be an issue with a large proportion, though far from all, cadets. The older FOs, including cadets, tend to have better life experience to equip them with a more appropriate sense of humour and balance of confidence and humility. I feel that it strongly supports a minimum age policy of 25, though Lubitz was older than that. If Lubitz had been older when he started, maybe he would have been better equipped to handle the pressures of flying and his health would not have suffered. That is, of course, speculative.
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I fear you're asking for something money can't buy. There is no need for a flight engineer and in any case the no3 would have to be a type-rated/trained pilot (albeit arguably no need to be current or valid medical). How are you going to find enough suitable people who are prepared to get up early, go to bed late and sit twiddling their thumbs every day? And where would they sit? The jump seat? Why not give them a rifle and make them wear a Stetson as well? 
“Has the Industry improved on that system ? I doubt it, but the Bean Counters are happy. Removing the Flt. Eng. from the flight deck was the biggest mistake
Re cabin crew on flight deck:
I take it there will be money set aside for massively increased vetting of new and existing cabin crew? No?
No chance of unintended consequences here then .
Good plan.
I take it there will be money set aside for massively increased vetting of new and existing cabin crew? No?
No chance of unintended consequences here then .
Good plan.
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Linerider,
Through the headset + the aerodynamic noise, you might not hear it, but if the noises are filtered out, then you might hear the sound of knob turning
Knobs were turned 15 times, see the source of this info in my post here
ALT knob makes ZERO noise... And, just a reminder, every assumption here is ONLY based on CVR recordings. FDR has still not been found.
Knobs were turned 15 times, see the source of this info in my post here
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Fullwings, once again I am mostly in agreement with your thoughts on this event.
Where we have a problem in the system is the mental health conundrum. In the US, self-reporting of a substance abuse or serious mental health issue, while honest and respectable, it is a career-ending move. 1st Class Medical, depending on the mental condition suffered, may be restored, but your job prospects would diminish to practically nil among the US majors.
How do we mitigate this? Testing has proved to be inadequate - at the extremes - psychopaths and sociopaths have fooled the system before. It's an underlying problem that the flying public and few others outside of the cadre of professionals have seriously discussed - until now.
Perhaps Lubitz, if the accusations are proven true, will have started something that may lead to a better system for all of us - something clearly needed seeing how the lantern-jawed superhuman pilots of old are no longer among us.
The first scenario could be avoided by looking after aircrew’s mental health better and the second by improved training, SOPs, equipment, fatigue management, etc.
How do we mitigate this? Testing has proved to be inadequate - at the extremes - psychopaths and sociopaths have fooled the system before. It's an underlying problem that the flying public and few others outside of the cadre of professionals have seriously discussed - until now.
Perhaps Lubitz, if the accusations are proven true, will have started something that may lead to a better system for all of us - something clearly needed seeing how the lantern-jawed superhuman pilots of old are no longer among us.
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Perhaps Lubitz, if the accusations are proven true, will have started something that may lead to a better system for all of us - something clearly needed seeing how the lantern-jawed superhuman pilots of old are no longer among us.
Apparently sociopaths can be detected with MRI scans. Ask some indirect questions to trigger responsibility and empathy and you will see their brain is dead silent in the part which should show reactions. I bet half of the AME's don't know what a sociopath actually is.
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Vertical mode can also be derived from other available parameters.
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Seems to me that all the FD crew need is a means to override the door locking system whatever the setting on the FD. That's to say a system that makes it impossible for FD crew to be prevented from reentry. Maybe crew should input a personal encrypted security code during pre-flight checks or before leaving the FD which would prevent closure against that code?
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Hi FPT
As has been said here a number of times, there are valid reasons to prevent Flt Crew entering the Flt Deck e.g. the JetBlue case, and Hijack where the Flt Crew is being "persuaded" to open the door.
The system worked as designed - it just was not designed for this scenario
Seems to me that all the FD crew need is a means to override the door locking system whatever the setting on the FD. That's to say a system that makes it impossible for FD crew to be prevented from reentry
The system worked as designed - it just was not designed for this scenario
