Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France
After 40 years flying as cabin crew I had a pretty good basic knowledge of the flight deck.
However if I had been sitting in on the German Wings flight whilst the Captain was absent I would not have noticed anything unusual in the co pilot altering the flight level it would be a normal action if he had received instructions from ATC.
The only time I would have been of useful assistance would be after the initial request to enter the cockpit was declined.
I guess I could have opened the door as I am familiar with the operation of this but would that have been sufficient given the time available for the Captain to get into a position to fly the aircraft safely?
I think that two persons at all times is a good idea but don't think it is the answer to the problem alone.
However if I had been sitting in on the German Wings flight whilst the Captain was absent I would not have noticed anything unusual in the co pilot altering the flight level it would be a normal action if he had received instructions from ATC.
The only time I would have been of useful assistance would be after the initial request to enter the cockpit was declined.
I guess I could have opened the door as I am familiar with the operation of this but would that have been sufficient given the time available for the Captain to get into a position to fly the aircraft safely?
I think that two persons at all times is a good idea but don't think it is the answer to the problem alone.
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Are we really sure that FO's depression played a role here at all?
He went to a doctor and got a sick note. Are you sure that was for depression? It could have been an injured knee after all that running.
He went to a hospital that did not treat him for depression. Bad knees?
When he had a bout of depression in 2008 he reported it and was treated until he was satisfyingly well. As you all noted, five years went by until he actually flew an airplane.
There are other possibilities out there. Don't slam people because once they were depressed. You can recover very well from a depression with the correct treatment. You can also be depressed without having suicidal thoughts. So excluding every single pilot that has suffered from depression is not necessary, although I see some here make those claims. On the contrary, a pilot that does not fear losing his/her job because of this illness have better chances of recovery because for them there is a light at the end of the tunnel, they have something to fight for!
I also see that many of you have absolutely no idea how SSRIs actually work and how they are linked to suicide. That is sad. Very sad. Misinformed, I would say.
He went to a doctor and got a sick note. Are you sure that was for depression? It could have been an injured knee after all that running.
He went to a hospital that did not treat him for depression. Bad knees?
When he had a bout of depression in 2008 he reported it and was treated until he was satisfyingly well. As you all noted, five years went by until he actually flew an airplane.
There are other possibilities out there. Don't slam people because once they were depressed. You can recover very well from a depression with the correct treatment. You can also be depressed without having suicidal thoughts. So excluding every single pilot that has suffered from depression is not necessary, although I see some here make those claims. On the contrary, a pilot that does not fear losing his/her job because of this illness have better chances of recovery because for them there is a light at the end of the tunnel, they have something to fight for!
I also see that many of you have absolutely no idea how SSRIs actually work and how they are linked to suicide. That is sad. Very sad. Misinformed, I would say.
No, if you're referring to the new EASA recommendations, they exempt aircraft operated with only one cabin crew and those with 60 or fewer seats.
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Innocent until proven guilty
Well, whatever his mental state was, he committed mass murder.
It's a good exercise for the rational mind not to fall too early for believable yet unproven. Particularly for pilots, supposedly one of the most rational minded professions out there.
After 40 years flying as cabin crew I had a pretty good basic knowledge of the flight deck.
However if I had been sitting in on the German Wings flight whilst the Captain was absent I would not have noticed anything unusual in the co pilot altering the flight level it would be a normal action if he had received instructions from ATC.
However if I had been sitting in on the German Wings flight whilst the Captain was absent I would not have noticed anything unusual in the co pilot altering the flight level it would be a normal action if he had received instructions from ATC.
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If the two persons on the flight deck is such a critical procedure as the door can be locked from inside leading to a mentally unstable person being able to abuse of the aircraft for other than the intended purpose, I wonder, as has Nigel, on the potential backdraws of such procedure.
A better way, IMHO would be to have an override key in the cockpit that the person wanting to take a personal break takes with him/her and therefore can get into the cockpit any time.
A better way, IMHO would be to have an override key in the cockpit that the person wanting to take a personal break takes with him/her and therefore can get into the cockpit any time.
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FA - limited pilot training
Just to play devil's advocate a little.
What if, during the Captain's toilet break with the Flight attendant in the cockpit, there is a depressurisation problem and the remaining pilot decides on an emergency descent? That's what Lubitz's action may have looked like to a FA, though we pilots know different.
Is the FA now likely to club the pilot with the fire extinguisher to prevent him/her, or do we give limited pilot training to all cabin crew?
Any solution has to be carefully thought through.
What if, during the Captain's toilet break with the Flight attendant in the cockpit, there is a depressurisation problem and the remaining pilot decides on an emergency descent? That's what Lubitz's action may have looked like to a FA, though we pilots know different.
Is the FA now likely to club the pilot with the fire extinguisher to prevent him/her, or do we give limited pilot training to all cabin crew?
Any solution has to be carefully thought through.
Last edited by jaytee54; 28th Mar 2015 at 15:49.
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If, and I mean IFF, this was indeed a planned act including concious and thought-through actions, I will be very angry and very sad. Because then this is a mass murder. And that can not, will not, never be justified.
But first: We don't have enough evidence. Right now there are rumours, innuendos and circumstantial evidence to something that might have been.
And second: In all other cases where there were confirmed suicide-murders by airplane, the employee in question had a beef with someone in the company. PSA1771, EgyptAir990, FedEx705 (unsuccessful but makes this list anyway). SilkAir185 has some convincing circumstantial evidence that this is the case. All these guys had a very special personality, one that didn't take defeat well. Most of them almost led a double life. Did this German youngster qualify to that? We don't know that yet.
What I do know is that I agree with Pace on this one. An act like this is more the mindset of a school shooter than that of a depressed person.
But to be honest... we simply don't know what really took place in that cockpit yet!
ETA: Oh yes, I forgot that Mocambique flight, can't remember the number now... Again, strange fellow with company issues.
But first: We don't have enough evidence. Right now there are rumours, innuendos and circumstantial evidence to something that might have been.
And second: In all other cases where there were confirmed suicide-murders by airplane, the employee in question had a beef with someone in the company. PSA1771, EgyptAir990, FedEx705 (unsuccessful but makes this list anyway). SilkAir185 has some convincing circumstantial evidence that this is the case. All these guys had a very special personality, one that didn't take defeat well. Most of them almost led a double life. Did this German youngster qualify to that? We don't know that yet.
What I do know is that I agree with Pace on this one. An act like this is more the mindset of a school shooter than that of a depressed person.
But to be honest... we simply don't know what really took place in that cockpit yet!
ETA: Oh yes, I forgot that Mocambique flight, can't remember the number now... Again, strange fellow with company issues.
Last edited by MrSnuggles; 28th Mar 2015 at 12:16. Reason: forgot
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Aviation runs on trust. You trust the mechanics to do their jobs right, you trust the dispatcher who plans the flight, you trust the ATC controller handling your flight, you trust the security screeners to keep weapons off your airplane, you trust the cabin crew to do their jobs properly and you trust the person in the other seat to know their stuff and operate the aircraft safely.
It is an amazing thing that we often climb into cockpits with total strangers and yet have an aviation safety record that makes the drive to the airport the riskiest part of the journey.
Sometimes, the system breaks down, but these are exceedingly rare occurrences. Aviation remains an extraordinarily safe industry despite the incredible complexity of the aircraft and support systems that keep us flying.
9/11 prompted a massive overreaction that changed the industry and job for, IMHO. the worse. It would be tragic if this event did something similar. What would be even worse is if the trust that keeps everything running was undermined, particularly since this seems to be the kind of "black swan" event that by definition is at the tail end of the probability distribution.
When I hear talk of mistrust of cabin crew, "airlock" doors, armed marshals and the like, I cringe -- and think about early retirement. I chose aviation because, like most, I absolutely love flying airplanes. Retiring from flying and using the law degree I have may be something I need to consider if things get even worse than they are because this prompts yet another ill-considered overreaction.
To truly live is to accept a certain level of risk and the elimination of all risk is an unattainable fantasy.
But, to sum things up, this remains, despite it all, a remarkably safe business, which is a fact that is often lost when incidents, whether accidental or deliberate, occur.
It is an amazing thing that we often climb into cockpits with total strangers and yet have an aviation safety record that makes the drive to the airport the riskiest part of the journey.
Sometimes, the system breaks down, but these are exceedingly rare occurrences. Aviation remains an extraordinarily safe industry despite the incredible complexity of the aircraft and support systems that keep us flying.
9/11 prompted a massive overreaction that changed the industry and job for, IMHO. the worse. It would be tragic if this event did something similar. What would be even worse is if the trust that keeps everything running was undermined, particularly since this seems to be the kind of "black swan" event that by definition is at the tail end of the probability distribution.
When I hear talk of mistrust of cabin crew, "airlock" doors, armed marshals and the like, I cringe -- and think about early retirement. I chose aviation because, like most, I absolutely love flying airplanes. Retiring from flying and using the law degree I have may be something I need to consider if things get even worse than they are because this prompts yet another ill-considered overreaction.
To truly live is to accept a certain level of risk and the elimination of all risk is an unattainable fantasy.
But, to sum things up, this remains, despite it all, a remarkably safe business, which is a fact that is often lost when incidents, whether accidental or deliberate, occur.
The door has no way of knowing whether the key is being used by the crew member or by a terrorist who has gained possession of it by duress. And if it's the latter, you have taken away the ability of the cockpit occupant(s) to deny access.
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cabin crew on flight deck
why the assumption that henceforth CC could be a risk on the FD? unless things have changed since my day, any of them can and do go there already in the course of their duties and so far as I know none yet have turned out to be
hijackers or worse. demonising them in advance is not conducive to good crew relations.
hijackers or worse. demonising them in advance is not conducive to good crew relations.
I agree that your chip-and-pin idea might work, but frankly I can't think of any proposed solution that doesn't risk unintended consequences.
The statement by the Prosecutor has opened the flood gates to every possible allegation against the F/O. Most of these allegations are totally without merit or fact,...
Fact: moments after reaching cruise, the captain left the cockpit (source: CVR)
Fact: moments after the Captain left the FO dialed in ALT 100' (source: ADS-B data, FT24)
Fact: the captain was unable to reenter the cockpit (source: CVR)
Deduction: the FO locked the door to ensure the captain could not return to the cockpit and intervene.
So we have a few indisputable events that indicate this was an intentional act by the FO to crash the plane.
The more recent pages here are speculation as to the FO's motive, contributing factors .... and whether this type of incident can be mitigated in the future, or not. The press is naturally having a field day, but the special investigators and prosecutor have plenty of leads to pursue
Though I'm concerned how this will affect the flying public's perception of pilots and the illusion of safety, in a "mass murder" scenario such as this I wonder whether the normal air crash investigation rules can apply. (and to be clear, in no way do I condone the leaks of CVR or anonymous reports from investigators in the know, which seem to have sparked this circus in the first place)
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Still lots of doubt about the suicide scenario IMO... no evidence that captain actually used the keypad, a controlled and stable decent profile, no attempt to erase the CVR just before impact... one would either want to scream at the cruelty of the world or else keep it completely secret and erase the CVR. Absolute silence and normal breathing isn't a plausible third choice!
I continue to remain absolutely astounded that an individual with 630 hrs TT accumulated over 7+ years was allowed to be a crew member on a modern, complex airliner in saturated airspace!
I am a pilot for 30+ years (non-pro) but also a physician. When we credential physicians for hospital privileges, we very carefully examine any significant time hiatus in someone's career pathway.
Unfortunately, but understandably, airline pilots are always a single medical event away from losing their medical clearance.
Anyway, count me as one who feels that a "rush to judgement" is happening here
I continue to remain absolutely astounded that an individual with 630 hrs TT accumulated over 7+ years was allowed to be a crew member on a modern, complex airliner in saturated airspace!
I am a pilot for 30+ years (non-pro) but also a physician. When we credential physicians for hospital privileges, we very carefully examine any significant time hiatus in someone's career pathway.
Unfortunately, but understandably, airline pilots are always a single medical event away from losing their medical clearance.
Anyway, count me as one who feels that a "rush to judgement" is happening here
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There have been several proven, or very likely, past instances of mass murder by pilot suicide. Why suddenly now do we start a witch-hunt against depressed pilots? We have accepted the risk in the past. We could continue to accept the risk, but with greater vigilance.
In the USA many hundreds of people, or is it thousands, are killed each year by guns, but the pro-gun lobby has convinced that country's politicians that guns should be allowed, even encouraged, rather than give up their democratic freedom. They value their freedom and accept the attendant risk.
Maybe we should accept the risk and stop the witch hunts and media hype.
Maybe we should get rid of the locked door now we see the risks it imposes.
Maybe we should scale back airport security in line with reality. How many bombers has airport security found and stopped, worldwide, in 20 years? They did once confiscate my nail clippers, just in case I attacked my copilot with them. Honestly, I had no intention of crashing my 767 into London.
Stopping terrorist attacks, and the mass shootings like in Norway, Dunblane and Columbine, and this latest aviation mass murder, is more about surveillance and infiltration or terrorists and keeping a friendly eye on family, friends and work colleagues.
In the USA many hundreds of people, or is it thousands, are killed each year by guns, but the pro-gun lobby has convinced that country's politicians that guns should be allowed, even encouraged, rather than give up their democratic freedom. They value their freedom and accept the attendant risk.
Maybe we should accept the risk and stop the witch hunts and media hype.
Maybe we should get rid of the locked door now we see the risks it imposes.
Maybe we should scale back airport security in line with reality. How many bombers has airport security found and stopped, worldwide, in 20 years? They did once confiscate my nail clippers, just in case I attacked my copilot with them. Honestly, I had no intention of crashing my 767 into London.
Stopping terrorist attacks, and the mass shootings like in Norway, Dunblane and Columbine, and this latest aviation mass murder, is more about surveillance and infiltration or terrorists and keeping a friendly eye on family, friends and work colleagues.
Last edited by jaytee54; 28th Mar 2015 at 15:45.
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The big giveaway there were problems was the alleged impulsive purchase of 2 brand new audi cars. Smacks of severe manic depression on a high.
If this guy was recently prescribed anti depression medication and was taking it unsupervised, it apparently can be not a good thing.
The question we have is how we maintain a certain level of patient confidentiality whilst protecting the wider community.
This isn't just an issue for aviation, this affects all areas of high consequence inductry, be that oil, nuclear or mass civilian transit. If it is managed incorrectly, it will make the situation worse by pushing those with illness underground. Time airline insurers recognised terms, conditions and company procedures that could support these individuals? Makes pretty good business sense.
If this guy was recently prescribed anti depression medication and was taking it unsupervised, it apparently can be not a good thing.
The question we have is how we maintain a certain level of patient confidentiality whilst protecting the wider community.
This isn't just an issue for aviation, this affects all areas of high consequence inductry, be that oil, nuclear or mass civilian transit. If it is managed incorrectly, it will make the situation worse by pushing those with illness underground. Time airline insurers recognised terms, conditions and company procedures that could support these individuals? Makes pretty good business sense.
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For people stating that they don't like the idea of a '2 person' rule - or who are uncomfortable with the extra person being a FA. Perhaps it is worth looking at the rest of the world - specifically at the USA where that IS the rule. How many pilot killings have been on US carriers operating that rule? It seems to be zero.
The '2 person rule' is not a perfect solution - that doesn't exist - but the evidence to date suggests that it is an important, simple and inexpensive precaution that appears to be largely effective. Which is presumably why it has been implemented (in true stable-door fashion) by many carriers in the last few days.
The '2 person rule' is not a perfect solution - that doesn't exist - but the evidence to date suggests that it is an important, simple and inexpensive precaution that appears to be largely effective. Which is presumably why it has been implemented (in true stable-door fashion) by many carriers in the last few days.
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May I ask you, what do you think the primary role of the flight attendant is? Do you think they are purely there just to serve you coffee or tea?
The point here is that there is IMHO a higher risk of a rogue FA with terrorist intent getting inserted into a flight crew than there is of a pilot with a clinical mental issue alone on the flight deck or of a rogue pilot with the terrorist intent driving the plane.
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Wow never has so much been said by so many knowing so little 
It is so obvious how many real professionals are on this thread (Hint use 1 hand to count them)
Talk about hijacking, this is as the website suggests is a Professional Pilots rumour network.
I cannot believe how many muppets with no idea about real aviation are posting absolute drivel on this thread.
Moderators, please delete any posts to do with aircraft security immediately lest the mentally unstable amongst us get ideas.
Any person who has posted anything to do with security or how systems work should be investigated by the appropriate countries terrorism units. And while I'm on a rant, CNN please stop with the experts, there is a reason they are ex-pilots
It is so obvious how many real professionals are on this thread (Hint use 1 hand to count them)
Talk about hijacking, this is as the website suggests is a Professional Pilots rumour network.
I cannot believe how many muppets with no idea about real aviation are posting absolute drivel on this thread.
Moderators, please delete any posts to do with aircraft security immediately lest the mentally unstable amongst us get ideas.
Any person who has posted anything to do with security or how systems work should be investigated by the appropriate countries terrorism units. And while I'm on a rant, CNN please stop with the experts, there is a reason they are ex-pilots
As long as the specific door codes are not revealed, I have no problem with it.
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Interesting and, in my view sensible, development.
The Latest: French pilots' union files lawsuit over leaks about Germanwings crash - 3/27/2015 5:49:34 AM | Newser
French pilots suing over crash leaks | Toronto Star
The Latest: French pilots' union files lawsuit over leaks about Germanwings crash - 3/27/2015 5:49:34 AM | Newser
French pilots suing over crash leaks | Toronto Star