Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France
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Not in the industry so admit to ignorance in advance, but after a long career in business at Senior level (G-4/5 so not much commercial experience of late), see some issues:
- Problems created by technology are normally best solved by technology. Not sure I really understand the need for a "Third" "Deadlock" option for Flight deck door locking. What does that really achieve?
- In all Organisations there must be basic discipline. And whilst I fully appreciate that aviation is different, an aircraft is an Organisation and it needs a CEO. That being the Captain. It seems to me that having a member of the Cabin Crew serve as a spy on the Flight deck when one of the "Senior Executives" leave temporarily doesn't do much for the discipline or, perhaps more importantly, morale in this Organisation? Or perhaps you Guys in aviation view this differently. Perhaps a new CRM (CABIN resource management)?
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The 'industry' did not create this guy
Utter nonsense
This guy created this guy
Blaming everything but this guy
The industry
The pay
The security system
The process
Etc
This guy is solely responsible for this
Period
What is scary is pilots are trying to make excuses or transfer responsibility
To justify these actions
Very disturbing
This has happened a few times out of millions and millions of flights involving 100's of 1000's of pilots
This has nothing to do with aviation
The occupation just made it easier and more catastrophic
Utter nonsense
This guy created this guy
Blaming everything but this guy
The industry
The pay
The security system
The process
Etc
This guy is solely responsible for this
Period
What is scary is pilots are trying to make excuses or transfer responsibility
To justify these actions
Very disturbing
This has happened a few times out of millions and millions of flights involving 100's of 1000's of pilots
This has nothing to do with aviation
The occupation just made it easier and more catastrophic
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In every business I've dealt with, the CEO has a board of directors or some sort of executive committee looking over his/her shoulder. Get used to it.
In my line of work (engineering) everything I do is subject to peer/group review at a minimum
In my line of work (engineering) everything I do is subject to peer/group review at a minimum
I ask again - to those who want a second crew member in the Flight Deck what is their role?
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some thoughts
not a pilot - first post here - i'm just an air-enthusiast who loves flying and planes...
wanted to post some thoughts about this disaster.
The speed at which they claimed suicide is alarming - since not all of the facts are known (although that is what this likely is - it's just odd to me that the investigation is sort of being conducted 'live').
the tidbit about him getting 'kurt' when discussing the landing means nothing in my opinion - he had NO way of knowing the captain was gonna leave the FD... it was a short flight - it was more likely on such a short flight that the captain would not leave at any point. there was no way for this copilot to know that this day was the day he could do this. also - "kurt" based on someone's opinion? how was he kurt?
secondly - as far as the passengers knowing what was happening - as a passenger, i would see the captain trying to break down the door and I'd think either it malfunctioned or the co-pilot was in trouble - i'd see the descent and I'd think - we're going to try for an emergency landing - maybe there's a small airport of a piece of flat land up ahead - i'd definitely be freaked out, but i would not assume i had moments to live - i'd be hoping that this gets resolved safely... i would not suspect we were going to be flown into a mountain... until the end. so tragic.
thirdly - regarding the door locks - i'm worried this incident will introduce more complexity and rules that will really not help. if someone is intent on killing everyone - they will do it. the 2 person rule is the only logical solution to MINIMIZE the risk (you get another chance for someone else to open the door) but nothing will mitigate the risk - and we can't get rid of all risk. the door locks i believe are important and I think they should stay. one other thought i have - is it at all possible to allow for the door to be opened remotely by ATC in the even of an emergency? that would be a possible solution - IF they can get ahold of ATC from outside the FD.
finally - the debate about airline pay - i agree with someone else who said higher pay does not equal more stable pilots/won't necessarily solve anything.. that may be true - but higher pay and better benefits would entice a larger pool of candidates into the field... you'd have more pilots and that would be a good thing. as it stands - everyone knows how difficult it is to get into and how stressful it can be (well - not everyone - but anyone who's considered it). also i agree that airlines have become too corporate - these should not be run by accountants and finance folks - it should be pilots, engineers and the like. it shouldn't be about stocks and shareholders... but again - not a pilot - so i don't understand all the politics.
wanted to post some thoughts about this disaster.
The speed at which they claimed suicide is alarming - since not all of the facts are known (although that is what this likely is - it's just odd to me that the investigation is sort of being conducted 'live').
the tidbit about him getting 'kurt' when discussing the landing means nothing in my opinion - he had NO way of knowing the captain was gonna leave the FD... it was a short flight - it was more likely on such a short flight that the captain would not leave at any point. there was no way for this copilot to know that this day was the day he could do this. also - "kurt" based on someone's opinion? how was he kurt?
secondly - as far as the passengers knowing what was happening - as a passenger, i would see the captain trying to break down the door and I'd think either it malfunctioned or the co-pilot was in trouble - i'd see the descent and I'd think - we're going to try for an emergency landing - maybe there's a small airport of a piece of flat land up ahead - i'd definitely be freaked out, but i would not assume i had moments to live - i'd be hoping that this gets resolved safely... i would not suspect we were going to be flown into a mountain... until the end. so tragic.
thirdly - regarding the door locks - i'm worried this incident will introduce more complexity and rules that will really not help. if someone is intent on killing everyone - they will do it. the 2 person rule is the only logical solution to MINIMIZE the risk (you get another chance for someone else to open the door) but nothing will mitigate the risk - and we can't get rid of all risk. the door locks i believe are important and I think they should stay. one other thought i have - is it at all possible to allow for the door to be opened remotely by ATC in the even of an emergency? that would be a possible solution - IF they can get ahold of ATC from outside the FD.
finally - the debate about airline pay - i agree with someone else who said higher pay does not equal more stable pilots/won't necessarily solve anything.. that may be true - but higher pay and better benefits would entice a larger pool of candidates into the field... you'd have more pilots and that would be a good thing. as it stands - everyone knows how difficult it is to get into and how stressful it can be (well - not everyone - but anyone who's considered it). also i agree that airlines have become too corporate - these should not be run by accountants and finance folks - it should be pilots, engineers and the like. it shouldn't be about stocks and shareholders... but again - not a pilot - so i don't understand all the politics.
Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult
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I really wonder how many of the intelligent(?) posters on here have any experience of mental health (MH) issues in themselves or others?
I think very, very few!
You all need to understand VERY, VERY clearly that just because someone has MH issues it does NOT in anyway make them suicidal.
Folk talk about the reaction of employers, they are very rarely the issue
It is the likes of posters on here if they are within the same workforce and quite often members of the persons family that are the biggest issue to folk not wishing to be honest about their situation.
You know the fear of some of the unsensitive remarks folk are posting on this thread, the fear of being treated differently by colleagues, the fear of exclusion by colleagues.
I don't have MH issues in the main, well I did last year as a result of being diagnosed with two forms of cancer, but help and support from family, friends, employer and colleagues got me over the issue (though I never openly admitted it to anyone).
My other half has suffered for over 30 years and has needed a huge amount of support, but guess what has NEVER wanted to commit suicide. Nor wanted to kill others which was a possibility because of occupation
Looking at some of the discriminatory remarks on here, it is no surprise that sufferers do it in silence partially in fear of the reaction of friends, colleagues and others.
And through absolute ignorance on the subject
It is an issue where sufferers do need to know they will get support from all directions.
Sadly in this situation and as much the fault of colleagues innocent folk have lost their lives.
So if you are in the industry YOU need to stop and rethink your attitudes to the suffering of others as much as employers, family and even customers!
I think very, very few!
You all need to understand VERY, VERY clearly that just because someone has MH issues it does NOT in anyway make them suicidal.
Folk talk about the reaction of employers, they are very rarely the issue
It is the likes of posters on here if they are within the same workforce and quite often members of the persons family that are the biggest issue to folk not wishing to be honest about their situation.
You know the fear of some of the unsensitive remarks folk are posting on this thread, the fear of being treated differently by colleagues, the fear of exclusion by colleagues.
I don't have MH issues in the main, well I did last year as a result of being diagnosed with two forms of cancer, but help and support from family, friends, employer and colleagues got me over the issue (though I never openly admitted it to anyone).
My other half has suffered for over 30 years and has needed a huge amount of support, but guess what has NEVER wanted to commit suicide. Nor wanted to kill others which was a possibility because of occupation
Looking at some of the discriminatory remarks on here, it is no surprise that sufferers do it in silence partially in fear of the reaction of friends, colleagues and others.
And through absolute ignorance on the subject
It is an issue where sufferers do need to know they will get support from all directions.
Sadly in this situation and as much the fault of colleagues innocent folk have lost their lives.
So if you are in the industry YOU need to stop and rethink your attitudes to the suffering of others as much as employers, family and even customers!
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They have no AC operational function.
Had a Flight attendant been present on the flight deck of the GermanWings flight, this disaster would most likely not have occurred.
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Cabin Alt warning goes off.Capt puts on Oxy Mask. CC hunting round for theirs...
"Miss Jones, will you please peer review my decision to descend the aircraft - I can only do it when you approve"
(Miss Jones slumps to floor)
"Miss Jones, Miss Jones, please allow me to descend the aircraft"
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Great post west lakes. That does of course not excuse his actions or make them OK. But other pilots who are all vulnerable to MH issues shouldn't have to have their names and careers tainted if they ever became unwell because of this guy.
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i can imagine that nothing about this disaster is any help to anyone out there who is struggling with depression, known or unknown, diagnosed or undiagnosed.
so I offer this up: when I was in my 40's I found myself feeling very unhappy with my day to day life. It was very subtle but over time, unmistakeable. Eventually I pretty much knew I was depressed. I did whatever I could to combat it, including running, which had always helped my mental state in the past.
At the time, depressive drugs were not allowed. I don't know how many pilots self reported depression at the time. I can't imagine it was very many. I had a family to support, and I saw the world through a warped lens.
But it became so bad I finally sought help from my family Dr., who scheduled a meeting with a Psychiatrist. The first thing he did was order a blood test which searched for a medical reason for depression.
And it turned out I had a severe case of hypothyroidism, which is not apparent from standard blood tests but requires a different test altogether.
There are medical reasons for depression that can be cured. I was off the line for three months while they readjusted my thyroid levels. I flew for 34 years b4 I retired. I never felt like that again, ever.
(Also, I never thought about killing anyone else. Not even my wife at the time, who had no idea about any of it, nor my FAA medical Dr, who didn't have a clue either.)
There are many medical reasons for depression, which, when addressed, completely cure the disease and the symptom, depression.
in case you didn't know.
so I offer this up: when I was in my 40's I found myself feeling very unhappy with my day to day life. It was very subtle but over time, unmistakeable. Eventually I pretty much knew I was depressed. I did whatever I could to combat it, including running, which had always helped my mental state in the past.
At the time, depressive drugs were not allowed. I don't know how many pilots self reported depression at the time. I can't imagine it was very many. I had a family to support, and I saw the world through a warped lens.
But it became so bad I finally sought help from my family Dr., who scheduled a meeting with a Psychiatrist. The first thing he did was order a blood test which searched for a medical reason for depression.
And it turned out I had a severe case of hypothyroidism, which is not apparent from standard blood tests but requires a different test altogether.
There are medical reasons for depression that can be cured. I was off the line for three months while they readjusted my thyroid levels. I flew for 34 years b4 I retired. I never felt like that again, ever.
(Also, I never thought about killing anyone else. Not even my wife at the time, who had no idea about any of it, nor my FAA medical Dr, who didn't have a clue either.)
There are many medical reasons for depression, which, when addressed, completely cure the disease and the symptom, depression.
in case you didn't know.
Freight God
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The process of having a person coming and going to the cockpit on a procedural level creates a potential entry point for a malicious intent. The whole cockpit closure scenario should be reassessed from the start.
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lot of awful discriminating and stupid posts here even by professional pilots, except the ones who have a little bit of understanding, insight and perhaps self experience of mental health issues.
Years ago we had Hitlers and Stalins, destroying whatever they could.
Now we have Breiviks and Lubitzes. As long as there are humans there will be madness. As sad and tragic as it is.
Perhaps some madness could be prevented by a better understanding of it?
But this chap could have had an underlying serious personality disorder, making him depressive as he was not functioning as he wanted? He could not fulfill his own expectations? This is where some societies or the culture of a country fails every so often. For example, look at Japan and their demand for perfection but then the suicide statistics ...
As sad and tragic as it is, it was a question of when and where.
Years ago we had Hitlers and Stalins, destroying whatever they could.
Now we have Breiviks and Lubitzes. As long as there are humans there will be madness. As sad and tragic as it is.
Perhaps some madness could be prevented by a better understanding of it?
But this chap could have had an underlying serious personality disorder, making him depressive as he was not functioning as he wanted? He could not fulfill his own expectations? This is where some societies or the culture of a country fails every so often. For example, look at Japan and their demand for perfection but then the suicide statistics ...
As sad and tragic as it is, it was a question of when and where.
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Hi Dieseal8
I am giving, I admit, a rather extreme example. But it does get to the basis of the issue.
So if my example is invalid, maybe you can give the most extreme scenario where the CC could be trained in when and how to intervene and countermand the actions of the (acting) aircraft Commander?
Now you are being intentionally obtuse. Have a great day.
So if my example is invalid, maybe you can give the most extreme scenario where the CC could be trained in when and how to intervene and countermand the actions of the (acting) aircraft Commander?
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Two in the cockpit
Perhaps I missed something, but as a retired air carrier pilot, and former Airbus driver, who just happened to be working on 9/11, I was under the impression that the requirement for a cabin crew-member to come to the flight deck in the event of one of the pilots having to leave the flight deck was primarily to look through the peep hole and verify who was trying to enter. It's true that on the "Bus," and other two pilot A/C, you can unlock the door without leaving your seat, but without CCTV, you can't actually check who is on the other side without getting out of the chair. Emergency entry code or no code!
Also it was FAR regulations that above FL250 when one of the pilots left their station the other had to be on and breathing oxygen. Above FL250 not only would you have to actually leave the seat but you would have to remove the mask. Of course "secret code" knocks were arranged to circumvent the regulation but the rule still was in place.
I don't recall it ever being mentioned that the purpose for the two on the flight deck rule was to have the F/A subdue the sole remaining pilot if he or she should go "over the edge."
As I recall the policy was crafted out of a concern that someone from the cabin might attempt to take advantage of a pilot leaving the Flight deck to somehow take control of the controls. Similar to the ban on congregation near the forward lav.
As I said, I might be mistaken. It wouldn't have been the first time I was daydreaming when something relevant was discussed in ground school.
Also it was FAR regulations that above FL250 when one of the pilots left their station the other had to be on and breathing oxygen. Above FL250 not only would you have to actually leave the seat but you would have to remove the mask. Of course "secret code" knocks were arranged to circumvent the regulation but the rule still was in place.
I don't recall it ever being mentioned that the purpose for the two on the flight deck rule was to have the F/A subdue the sole remaining pilot if he or she should go "over the edge."
As I recall the policy was crafted out of a concern that someone from the cabin might attempt to take advantage of a pilot leaving the Flight deck to somehow take control of the controls. Similar to the ban on congregation near the forward lav.
As I said, I might be mistaken. It wouldn't have been the first time I was daydreaming when something relevant was discussed in ground school.
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Can everyone who is harping on about the cockpit doors please stop and think before posting rubbish.
A pilot could destroy the plane with the other pilot strapped in next to him and the Chief Pilot in the jump seat. Chuck bloody Norris in the jumpseat. It's easy. You've got the controls.
Forget about the door. It is not relevant.
Forget about the door. It does what it was designed to do.
A pilot could destroy the plane with the other pilot strapped in next to him and the Chief Pilot in the jump seat. Chuck bloody Norris in the jumpseat. It's easy. You've got the controls.
Forget about the door. It is not relevant.
Forget about the door. It does what it was designed to do.
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There could be times when access to the flight deck during flight is in the best interest of flight safety.
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Can everyone who is harping on about the cockpit doors please stop and think before posting rubbish.
A pilot could destroy the plane with the other pilot strapped in next to him and the Chief Pilot in the jump seat. Chuck bloody Norris in the jumpseat. It's easy. You've got the controls.
Forget about the door. It is not relevant.
Forget about the door. It does what it was designed to do.
A pilot could destroy the plane with the other pilot strapped in next to him and the Chief Pilot in the jump seat. Chuck bloody Norris in the jumpseat. It's easy. You've got the controls.
Forget about the door. It is not relevant.
Forget about the door. It does what it was designed to do.
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@Murexway: It obviously detects when the aircraft is in landing config although EGPWS is still active.
About the FA being present in cockpit rule, if the FA hears someone banging from outside how will they prevent who-ever is in cockpit to stop denying entry? All FAs need to be taught how to use the cockpit lock switch operation?
About the FA being present in cockpit rule, if the FA hears someone banging from outside how will they prevent who-ever is in cockpit to stop denying entry? All FAs need to be taught how to use the cockpit lock switch operation?
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astroduffer:
Spot on 
Hence my questions to others about moving to your second sentence...
but without CCTV, you can't actually check who is on the other side without getting out of the chair ..... I don't recall it ever being mentioned that the purpose for the two on the flight deck rule was to have the F/A subdue the sole remaining pilot if he or she should go "over the edge."
Hence my questions to others about moving to your second sentence...
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Again
This guy is solely responsible for this
The fact that 1/4 US women are on psych meds speaks more to the profit motivation of the industry than their state of mind
I'm not sure I believe that number either
That equates to 40,000,000 mil females
Self medication with medical assistance
How many drink
Do illegal drugs
Over eat
Are all mentally ill
Everyone is mentally ill to some degree
Just as they are physically ill
Mental illness has become an industry and an excuse
This guy is solely responsible for this
The fact that 1/4 US women are on psych meds speaks more to the profit motivation of the industry than their state of mind
I'm not sure I believe that number either
That equates to 40,000,000 mil females
Self medication with medical assistance
How many drink
Do illegal drugs
Over eat
Are all mentally ill
Everyone is mentally ill to some degree
Just as they are physically ill
Mental illness has become an industry and an excuse