Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France
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I've been following this thread for a couple of days, but I haven't yet seen this particular argument (individual bits collated from numerous sources including the French BFMTV Live Feed):
1. Andreas Lubitz was a very intense young man. One of his friends from years ago said that "he would have died if he had failed to become a pilot". He clearly set himself very important goals which could not be missed or changed.
2. He was a perfectionist. This and 1. above are well-known causative factors in depression.
3. His severe depression led to a lengthy period off work. Lufthansa of course knew about this depression: this in itself would have been very difficult for him to accept.
3. His colleagues mocked him for having been a flight attendant for a period.
4. He wanted very much to go long-haul but was not accepted.
5. High intensity short-haul, for someone with Lubitz's make up. would soon become tedious, stressful and unsatisfying (as it did for me, and others I know). He could at this stage be thinking: "I sacrificed all of those years and efforts for this?" (as I regret to say I did).
6. Criticism from training captains would have been very difficult for him. Much more than for an easy going FO.
7. Any or all of the above could have led him to see a lapse back into severe depression as a fate worse than death. See 1. again.
There is a possibility than very driven highly perfectionist young men are not the ideal candidates for this career. I have flown with FOs like this, and it's not much fun, and doesn't make for a good flight deck environment . They often have a rigid view of what is correct and what is not, and rarely relax, which is contagious.
Some airlines put sociability at the top of the list of desired qualities when hiring. I'm guessing here, but perhaps LH doesn't?
1. Andreas Lubitz was a very intense young man. One of his friends from years ago said that "he would have died if he had failed to become a pilot". He clearly set himself very important goals which could not be missed or changed.
2. He was a perfectionist. This and 1. above are well-known causative factors in depression.
3. His severe depression led to a lengthy period off work. Lufthansa of course knew about this depression: this in itself would have been very difficult for him to accept.
3. His colleagues mocked him for having been a flight attendant for a period.
4. He wanted very much to go long-haul but was not accepted.
5. High intensity short-haul, for someone with Lubitz's make up. would soon become tedious, stressful and unsatisfying (as it did for me, and others I know). He could at this stage be thinking: "I sacrificed all of those years and efforts for this?" (as I regret to say I did).
6. Criticism from training captains would have been very difficult for him. Much more than for an easy going FO.
7. Any or all of the above could have led him to see a lapse back into severe depression as a fate worse than death. See 1. again.
There is a possibility than very driven highly perfectionist young men are not the ideal candidates for this career. I have flown with FOs like this, and it's not much fun, and doesn't make for a good flight deck environment . They often have a rigid view of what is correct and what is not, and rarely relax, which is contagious.
Some airlines put sociability at the top of the list of desired qualities when hiring. I'm guessing here, but perhaps LH doesn't?
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I think it has been posted that the FO started training in 2008. I also read he had only about 600 hours. Doesn't compute??
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The AME has been consulted by the pilot, and gives him a sick note. His depression has returned. The airline will give him time off work to recover, and SHOULD NEVER LET HIM FLY AGAIN! So of course he will hide the news. Therefore,it is the duty of the AME, or his private physician, to inform the Company directly, as a matter of urgency.
But pilots who want to keep on flying, will avoid the medics altogether. Or find a medic who is too busy to notice. So who is going to be the whistleblower ?
It has to be his mates, his co-workers. Or his family. After this shocking event, perhaps friends and family would be willing to express concern to a doctor, any doctor, who should then have a legal duty to inform the airline.
Slats 11, who posted from Sidney at 13.22, has a good suggestion.
Is it possible, logistically, for an airline to schedule aircrew to work as a team on a REGULAR BASIS? A small group well acquainted with each other will soon spot when one of the team is not right.
But pilots who want to keep on flying, will avoid the medics altogether. Or find a medic who is too busy to notice. So who is going to be the whistleblower ?
It has to be his mates, his co-workers. Or his family. After this shocking event, perhaps friends and family would be willing to express concern to a doctor, any doctor, who should then have a legal duty to inform the airline.
Slats 11, who posted from Sidney at 13.22, has a good suggestion.
Is it possible, logistically, for an airline to schedule aircrew to work as a team on a REGULAR BASIS? A small group well acquainted with each other will soon spot when one of the team is not right.
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Screening pilots is not that hard, however airlines HR and/or management current procedures may overlook something that the military do for some time prior to put a multi-million very lethal F-16/F-18/Mirage/Eurofighter/etc in the hands of someone.
There are not many stories of screwed up military pilots that crashed their warbird in the worst possible way. And at first glance most of those topgun military pilots seem a bit beyond of what you might consider ‘normal’.
There are not many stories of screwed up military pilots that crashed their warbird in the worst possible way. And at first glance most of those topgun military pilots seem a bit beyond of what you might consider ‘normal’.
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4. He wanted very much to go long-haul but was not accepted.
Why did the Doctor not advise LH ?
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Diesel8 says in #2041, "Aircraft does not take corrective actions in case of GPWS".
The GPWS itself might not have the capability, but what about the software controlling the a/c? Does it not think to apply some "stick back" to level out at a height which complies with local legal regs?
The GPWS itself might not have the capability, but what about the software controlling the a/c? Does it not think to apply some "stick back" to level out at a height which complies with local legal regs?
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SOPS; Totally agree. Not soap-boxing at all. Once airlines get back to rigid selection criteria and pay to train highly selected applicants, the psychologically challenged candidates won't even get past phase one of at lease a six phase selection procedure.Can't believe the trolls on this site who would have us give this deranged killer a cuddle and and tell his likes, "There there poor little darlings........overworked, underpaid, paying to fly too......................booo hooo!"
Families of those lost in this tragedy should sue Germanwings for appalling selection procedure.
Families of those lost in this tragedy should sue Germanwings for appalling selection procedure.
Everything is under control.
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3. His colleagues mocked him for having been a flight attendant for a period.
Last edited by Eboy; 27th Mar 2015 at 15:28. Reason: type
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Families of those lost in this tragedy should sue Germanwings for appalling selection procedure
But then, i guess you are in favor of a three month interval psych eval for every current pilot as well.
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Flight engineers back please
my theory is that gw9525, the 6 other cases... PLUS 9-11...would have never occurred had we kept the flight engineer position. the F/E sits sideways next to the cockpit door, has his hands free and can stop intruders quickly and control the position of the door. best example the FED Ex DC-10 attempt. There was an old FAR that required a F/E on any airplane above 80k (or something like it). DC-6,DC-7 connie, A300, early 737( at western and air france) all had f/e's. besides if new airlines insist in putting 600hr wonder kids in the right seat of a320's at least a 3 set of eyes will help improve safety..just ask any crew that flies long range with a relief pilot
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Landflap - you do know mental illness can strike at any time to anyone for no reason, don't you? You are also aware that it is perfectly possible to perform perfectly whilst suffering and can go back to performing perfectly after a bout of mental ill health with appropriate treatment don't you?
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I have been following this forum for a long time now, and I'm finding that I have to keep reminding myself that the forum is on aviation matters. If you read the last number of pages it would be easy to think that it was a medical or trade union forum.
Having said that I've read with interest all the suggestions for allowing emergency access to the FD. What if for example the roles were reversed and the driver intent on crashing had been removed from the FD. How then would you reverse all the procedures for getting access to the FD?
I'm not sure it will be possible to ensure that the crew member intent on causing harm is ALWAYS on the correct side of the locked door.
Having said that I've read with interest all the suggestions for allowing emergency access to the FD. What if for example the roles were reversed and the driver intent on crashing had been removed from the FD. How then would you reverse all the procedures for getting access to the FD?
I'm not sure it will be possible to ensure that the crew member intent on causing harm is ALWAYS on the correct side of the locked door.
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At present the A/C does not provide any form of protection when it comes to terrain, it merely provide warnings.
A pilot would always have to retain the ability to disengage terrain protection for obvious reasons. In the future it is probably inevitable that machines will be able to fly safer than humans, but until that is possible we must rely on humans with all of their frailties.
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Pace. I am not an A320 captain but will give you a response to your Master Key idea.
No it will not work.
No it will not work.
Bio-metric ID could be used in conjunction with a PIN to access the door. So like Pace said you have they key (your iris or fingerprint), and then a PIN. This PIN/Key arrangement is quite common in high security buildings. You would have to remove the ability to prevent valid "keyholders" from being denied access from inside the cockpit, which is currently the case.
In a duress situation the PIN would be changed slightly by the keyholder to trigger a "duress alarm" whereby access is still given. The "duress alarm" could then be used to trigger a distress signal, possibly a squark 7500, to allow a controller to see that someone has gained access to that cockpit under duress.
Certainly the knee-jerk reaction we are currently seeing could present more problems than it solves.
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I have been following this forum for a long time now, and I'm finding that I have to keep reminding myself that the forum is on aviation matters. If you read the last number of pages it would be easy to think that it was a medical or trade union forum.
Having said that I've read with interest all the suggestions for allowing emergency access to the FD. What if for example the roles were reversed and the driver intent on crashing had been removed from the FD. How then would you reverse all the procedures for getting access to the FD?
I'm not sure it will be possible to ensure that the crew member intent on causing harm is ALWAYS on the correct side of the locked door.
Having said that I've read with interest all the suggestions for allowing emergency access to the FD. What if for example the roles were reversed and the driver intent on crashing had been removed from the FD. How then would you reverse all the procedures for getting access to the FD?
I'm not sure it will be possible to ensure that the crew member intent on causing harm is ALWAYS on the correct side of the locked door.
The key pad access procedure is there in case of incapacitation, not normal access. Well at least at my company.
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Originally Posted by Eboy
Is there a culture of bullying at the airline?
Is there a culture of bullying at the airline?
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6. Criticism from training captains would have been very difficult for him. Much more than for an easy going FO.
I would go with your view as of his possible character as someone interspersed with moments of explosive anger and then deep depression perfectionists who cannot take criticism but in certain company have to restrain themselves from venting that anger and Criticism.
The clue was in the change of mood when the Captain started the briefing something triggered him.
When the Captain left the cockpit my guess is he started a descent dialling in 100 feet, closed his eyes into a meditative state and allowed the jet to descend to destruction on an unaltered heading. He would have been oblivious to everything and anybody. Maybe that would account for his steady breathing an acceptance and resignation to what he was doing.
Why does a child or young adult who hates school suddenly turn up at the school yard and shoot innocent children in the play ground? its hard to understand the mentality of someone like that
Can you forgive someone like that NO what he did was an attrocious evil act