Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France
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Pace,
There are plenty of aviation accidents that have resulted in the crew flying the aircraft into terrain.
Majority were not pilot suicide but DID involve a pilot making, what he/she thought at the time a correct selection that would send the aircraft to the side of the mountain.
But if tabloid newspapers and 24/7 tv news have decided it was whole heartedly a suicide then why is Europe paying the BEA to investigate the crash?
They should just stop now shouldn't they?
There are plenty of aviation accidents that have resulted in the crew flying the aircraft into terrain.
Majority were not pilot suicide but DID involve a pilot making, what he/she thought at the time a correct selection that would send the aircraft to the side of the mountain.
But if tabloid newspapers and 24/7 tv news have decided it was whole heartedly a suicide then why is Europe paying the BEA to investigate the crash?
They should just stop now shouldn't they?
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Those that think having a member of cabin crew in the cockpit to replace one of the pilots taking a toilet break will make no difference as he/she could be easily overpowered are missing the point.
IF and that's a big IF the F/O committed this act it would have been far easier to do it once he was alone in the cockpit with a locked door behind him.
Having to overpower the member of crew sitting next to him would have been a deterrent just as it was a deterrent having a pilot sitting next to him....until of course that seat was empty.
IF and that's a big IF the F/O committed this act it would have been far easier to do it once he was alone in the cockpit with a locked door behind him.
Having to overpower the member of crew sitting next to him would have been a deterrent just as it was a deterrent having a pilot sitting next to him....until of course that seat was empty.
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From BBC on-line:
I would just add that Germany has rather strict privacy laws and release of this information is ilegal
When Mr Lubitz finished training in 2009, he was diagnosed with a serious depressive episode and went on to receive treatment for a year and a half, the German news site Bild reports.
Internal documents quoted by Bild and German broadcaster ARD say a note on Mr Lubitz's aviation authority file recommended regular psychological assessment.
Internal documents quoted by Bild and German broadcaster ARD say a note on Mr Lubitz's aviation authority file recommended regular psychological assessment.
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I would just add that Germany has rather strict privacy laws and release of this information is ilegal
Last edited by No_Speed_Restriction; 27th Mar 2015 at 11:25. Reason: none
I find it troubling that so many self-professed "professionals" on here are tiptoeing around the F/O's documented history of mental illness and a system that allows such a person with that history person to hold a medical certificate of a class sufficient for a commercial pilot certificate to remain valid. Sorry (not) if that sounds "discriminatory" but in aviation, particularly for those involved in commercial/common carriage of passengers with no say who occupies the front seats, our whole careers are discriminatory in terms of performance and health standards that must be met.
But it seems some would rather co-opt this event as a vehicle to bray about their pet aviation peeves like pay, their opinions on what they view as "senseless rules" etc or further conspiracy theories. More incredibly, some view this as a fraternal issue in spite of the fact we know the altitude preselect was purposely set lower, that A/P entries must be made in order to begin a descent, and disabling the door entry keypad from inside the cockpit takes a deliberate act that requires operating a guarded switch.
If these things were done, I want no fraternal association with that person, mentally ill or not, who betrayed that trust and perpetrated this horrible event. 150 innocent people died folks, the secondary issues and "woe is me I'm an underpaid pilot" are irrelevant and somewhat disgusting.
But it seems some would rather co-opt this event as a vehicle to bray about their pet aviation peeves like pay, their opinions on what they view as "senseless rules" etc or further conspiracy theories. More incredibly, some view this as a fraternal issue in spite of the fact we know the altitude preselect was purposely set lower, that A/P entries must be made in order to begin a descent, and disabling the door entry keypad from inside the cockpit takes a deliberate act that requires operating a guarded switch.
If these things were done, I want no fraternal association with that person, mentally ill or not, who betrayed that trust and perpetrated this horrible event. 150 innocent people died folks, the secondary issues and "woe is me I'm an underpaid pilot" are irrelevant and somewhat disgusting.
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Chime
If no chime why the descent?.Pilots do not just descend, they ask ATC for clearance. This was not done. No declaration of emergency either.
100ft approx was set on Altitude selector. Then descent was started.
ATC tried to contact ac with no reply. FO was breathing.
Captain outside heard trying to get in.
FO locked door.
No indication from AC that anything was wrong.
100ft approx was set on Altitude selector. Then descent was started.
ATC tried to contact ac with no reply. FO was breathing.
Captain outside heard trying to get in.
FO locked door.
No indication from AC that anything was wrong.
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So why are the French authorities so confident that it was the FO who remained on the flight deck and how can they be so confident that the aircraft was deliberately flown into the ground?
because there is also the enhanced mode s radar data that gives the selected altitude - changed from 38000ft to 96ft, which they can correlate with a switch change noise, and also they know which seat moved - from the voice recorder
because there is also the enhanced mode s radar data that gives the selected altitude - changed from 38000ft to 96ft, which they can correlate with a switch change noise, and also they know which seat moved - from the voice recorder
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Originally Posted by QDMQDMQDM 
If the copilot did indeed deliberately fly the aircraft into the Alps, as seems very likely, then that is at first sight completely baffling. If you just want to commit suicide, why on Earth would you want to take 150 innocent people with you? It's just not rational. And that's the thing -- this act was not rational, so therefore we have to look at what could plausibly make someone act in such an irrational manner.
If the copilot did indeed deliberately fly the aircraft into the Alps, as seems very likely, then that is at first sight completely baffling. If you just want to commit suicide, why on Earth would you want to take 150 innocent people with you? It's just not rational. And that's the thing -- this act was not rational, so therefore we have to look at what could plausibly make someone act in such an irrational manner.
Certainly those developments seems to answer the question as the states of being rational or irrational.
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Seniortarget - agreed but it is a question of probabilities.
It is highly likely (though not certain) that this guy committed an act that is a possible (though highly improbable) act on any flight we might take.
Personally I think the risk of a pilot suicide/ pilot terrorist or whatever we call it while a possibility is despite this incident is still very low indeed.
If we try and introduce procedures for every possible risk however low then we will get to the point where inconvenience is overwhelming.
When I fly I am thousands of times more likely to be killed by the mistake of a well intention ed and concientious professional pilot than I am by a mad man. But I still fly because the risk is so small. Way smaller than the risk of the journey to the airport for example.
I know 2 on the flight deck can help mitigate this risk I am not sure that i personally would bother.
Obviously not my decision though - just a personal view
It is highly likely (though not certain) that this guy committed an act that is a possible (though highly improbable) act on any flight we might take.
Personally I think the risk of a pilot suicide/ pilot terrorist or whatever we call it while a possibility is despite this incident is still very low indeed.
If we try and introduce procedures for every possible risk however low then we will get to the point where inconvenience is overwhelming.
When I fly I am thousands of times more likely to be killed by the mistake of a well intention ed and concientious professional pilot than I am by a mad man. But I still fly because the risk is so small. Way smaller than the risk of the journey to the airport for example.
I know 2 on the flight deck can help mitigate this risk I am not sure that i personally would bother.
Obviously not my decision though - just a personal view
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I would just say that this should have prevented him from obtaining a flying licence.
There is no way of knowing which pilot selected the altitude or the descent mode*, unless they took manual control^, which is unlikely.
* There is just one knob to do this, (well, two if you include V/S), but both pilots use the same control(s) depending who is PF.
^ Then we could see which sidestick was moved.
* There is just one knob to do this, (well, two if you include V/S), but both pilots use the same control(s) depending who is PF.
^ Then we could see which sidestick was moved.
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There is no way of knowing which pilot selected the altitude or the descent mode*, unless they took manual control^, which is unlikely.
* There is just one knob to do this, (well, two if you include V/S), but both pilots use the same control(s) depending who is PF.
^ Then we could see which sidestick was moved.
* There is just one knob to do this, (well, two if you include V/S), but both pilots use the same control(s) depending who is PF.
^ Then we could see which sidestick was moved.
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The 'depressive episode / burnout' seems to have come very early in the co-pilot's career. I know that breakdown is not uncommon among new university students, who feel under intense pressure and are away from family support for the first time. Is this also a common feature among cadet pilots?
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German news outlet (Ard) reporting that according to German investigators, a sick note has been found that had been issued to cover the day that he flew the plane. They are saying he hid his illness from his employer. This is breaking news - probably not widely reported yet. Source is the ARD, reporting info provided by the prosecutor general of Düsseldorf.
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Birmingham,
If you don't personally bother then you leave an open goal, if you stand if front of the goal you can't guarentee 100% success but you will reduce the risk of failure.
Security is also a deterrent, its a pain in the b*tt but I would rather have it than an open goal.
If you don't personally bother then you leave an open goal, if you stand if front of the goal you can't guarentee 100% success but you will reduce the risk of failure.
Security is also a deterrent, its a pain in the b*tt but I would rather have it than an open goal.
FX Guru
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As someone who is suffering from a spot of Black Dog at the moment I can assure you it's not a nice place.
There was an earlier post that mentioned people who are suited and booted and on their way to work who suddenly decide just to jump in front of a train. They didn't plan to. Something clicks -
"silicon chip within her brain,
goes into overdrive"
and they do it.
My speculation only, a sudden psychotic episode may have happened here.
There was an earlier post that mentioned people who are suited and booted and on their way to work who suddenly decide just to jump in front of a train. They didn't plan to. Something clicks -
"silicon chip within her brain,
goes into overdrive"
and they do it.
My speculation only, a sudden psychotic episode may have happened here.
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I know it's a sensitive territory for discussion but should it not have been at this point that passenger safety outweighed patient confidentiality? Surely the person treating him knew of his profession.