Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France
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How does having two in the cockpit enhance safety?
There is an AXE in there for starters, one pilot could over-power the other, a purser... in my experience are by majority Women...
I'm just a SLF but my partner is an FJ, perhaps soon a purser. I'm sorry but having her in the cockpit won't enhance safety, unless her beautiful smile calms down the crazy pilot.
False sense of security which is being done by airliners simply to reassure passengers.
There is an AXE in there for starters, one pilot could over-power the other, a purser... in my experience are by majority Women...
I'm just a SLF but my partner is an FJ, perhaps soon a purser. I'm sorry but having her in the cockpit won't enhance safety, unless her beautiful smile calms down the crazy pilot.
False sense of security which is being done by airliners simply to reassure passengers.
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His actions were 'half hearted' it wasn't an aggressive or expedited manoeuvre to crash the aircraft into terra firma,
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I like the US model, where an ATP needs 1500 hours. Nut jobs might be discovered by then, but it would cost money.
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The flight deck door has to go.
It causes more problems than it solves now. The fact is a flight deck breech, although a possibility, is unlikely to succeed due to the fact that passengers will not permit it to happen post 9/11.
If I were a terrorist organisation intent on causing harm using aircraft, I can now place a cabin crew member in the flight deck in 3 months at a lot less cost than trying to put a pilot in that position.
It causes more problems than it solves now. The fact is a flight deck breech, although a possibility, is unlikely to succeed due to the fact that passengers will not permit it to happen post 9/11.
If I were a terrorist organisation intent on causing harm using aircraft, I can now place a cabin crew member in the flight deck in 3 months at a lot less cost than trying to put a pilot in that position.
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I see one solution :
that the regular doctor is in relation with the aeronautic doctor.
Meaning that each person must have a regular doctor, the medical (aeronautic) request his name, so they can exchange any major problems.
that the regular doctor is in relation with the aeronautic doctor.
Meaning that each person must have a regular doctor, the medical (aeronautic) request his name, so they can exchange any major problems.
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KatSLF
"We are not getting the full story here"
Of course we are not. We are into day 3 of a long investigation. Two investigations in fact, as the French run a judicial investigation (who was at fault?) and the technical one (BEA: what was the cause?).
Even the prosecutor yesterday was at pains to say the CVR points to a deliberate act, not that the enquiry is over!
Of course we are not. We are into day 3 of a long investigation. Two investigations in fact, as the French run a judicial investigation (who was at fault?) and the technical one (BEA: what was the cause?).
Even the prosecutor yesterday was at pains to say the CVR points to a deliberate act, not that the enquiry is over!
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The airline should take a leaf out of the cop's book.
For several decades I ran a high tech company in California where the turnover of employees in there 20's and early 30's was high. On several occasions I got a call from the FBI, Los Angeles PD and LA county sheriff dept. wanting to stop by and chat about former employees who had moved on and were now applying for positions with the above law enforcement agencies. What was interesting was some of the folk they wanted to get a feel for had left my company several years earlier and had had a few jobs since but the HR dept at the cops still sent someone round to chat about what type of people they were. When i told the cop during the meeting that the person in question was a hard worker with good attendance etc. they waived that off and focused in on my impression of the candidates social skills and asked questions like "did they have ever hang out with other staff after work? i.e. go drinking or bowling or socializing etc. I realized they were looking beyond your usual HR **** and trying to get a read on their human skills and interaction. Maybe the airlines should look at this?
For several decades I ran a high tech company in California where the turnover of employees in there 20's and early 30's was high. On several occasions I got a call from the FBI, Los Angeles PD and LA county sheriff dept. wanting to stop by and chat about former employees who had moved on and were now applying for positions with the above law enforcement agencies. What was interesting was some of the folk they wanted to get a feel for had left my company several years earlier and had had a few jobs since but the HR dept at the cops still sent someone round to chat about what type of people they were. When i told the cop during the meeting that the person in question was a hard worker with good attendance etc. they waived that off and focused in on my impression of the candidates social skills and asked questions like "did they have ever hang out with other staff after work? i.e. go drinking or bowling or socializing etc. I realized they were looking beyond your usual HR **** and trying to get a read on their human skills and interaction. Maybe the airlines should look at this?
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Incredible slew of theories, each one reflecting the prejudices of the poster.
When Brevik killed those people in Norway, he left a massive trail, he had planned it for months. When Robin Williams died, likewise there was clear motive, it culminated a long period of difficulty. ME Terrorists likewise have clear reasons and history.
Here there is nothing.
Just another unexplained passenger plane crashing, ontop of the 3 last year.
The authorities want to sound definitive and in control.
How many doctors in their training take a bit of time out for stress and overload?
When Brevik killed those people in Norway, he left a massive trail, he had planned it for months. When Robin Williams died, likewise there was clear motive, it culminated a long period of difficulty. ME Terrorists likewise have clear reasons and history.
Here there is nothing.
Just another unexplained passenger plane crashing, ontop of the 3 last year.
The authorities want to sound definitive and in control.
How many doctors in their training take a bit of time out for stress and overload?
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Interesting revelations on breakfast time television firstly that the co pilot took six months off flying suffering with depression and later was deemed unfit to fly at flight training in Phoenix
This was followed by a psychologist who described suicide and two types! The vast majority who blame themselves and self harm and the type who blame society and tge world for their state which turns into anger,
They are the type who will gun down a school yard of kids or crash a plane full of people as they punish the world for their sorry state
Interesting the pilots home has had many items removed for examination and it was announced that one item was very significant I am sure a lot more will unwind today
This was followed by a psychologist who described suicide and two types! The vast majority who blame themselves and self harm and the type who blame society and tge world for their state which turns into anger,
They are the type who will gun down a school yard of kids or crash a plane full of people as they punish the world for their sorry state
Interesting the pilots home has had many items removed for examination and it was announced that one item was very significant I am sure a lot more will unwind today
It would appear that the CDLS 'LOCK' mode prevented the cockpit door being opened using the emergency access method.
2 crew members at all times in the cockpit is one solution; however, would it not be reasonable to change the CDLS so that selecting the 'LOCK' mode requires dual consent? Fit 2 pushbuttons in physical locations that cannot be reached by a single occupant, with a logic requiring that both have to be operated together before the CDLS 'LOCK' is activated - one CM must push and hold the 'consent' pushbutton on one side, then the other CM must press the other 'consent' pushbutton to enable the CDLS 'LOCK'.
Probably an expensive modification, but not unreasonable for an aircraft operator who does not require the cockpit to be fully manned at all times. Whether it's simpler to use sufficiently competent cockpit babysitters whenever one pilot needs to leave the cockpit is open to doubt - as that would probably incur training costs.
2 crew members at all times in the cockpit is one solution; however, would it not be reasonable to change the CDLS so that selecting the 'LOCK' mode requires dual consent? Fit 2 pushbuttons in physical locations that cannot be reached by a single occupant, with a logic requiring that both have to be operated together before the CDLS 'LOCK' is activated - one CM must push and hold the 'consent' pushbutton on one side, then the other CM must press the other 'consent' pushbutton to enable the CDLS 'LOCK'.
Probably an expensive modification, but not unreasonable for an aircraft operator who does not require the cockpit to be fully manned at all times. Whether it's simpler to use sufficiently competent cockpit babysitters whenever one pilot needs to leave the cockpit is open to doubt - as that would probably incur training costs.
Last edited by BEagle; 27th Mar 2015 at 07:21.
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During my time working for a UK LCC, we had a cabin crew arrested by MI6 on suspicion of being involved in a terrorist cell. That person was a male, pretty strongly built chap, looked like a gym rat.
The guy brought me a coffee in the cruise on several occasions, was always friendly enough. Everyone was pretty amazed to hear the news.
Obviously a lot of "holy-
" and "what-if" scenarios were discussed among the pilots in the days after his arrest.
We'll never know but I for one am very glad that there was NO policy requiring hosties to be left alone with one pilot at that time, because that would obviously have been the best time for the bad guys to attack.
What's the answer to that one, have TWO cabin crew up the front, one to supervise the other? Where does the paranoia end?
Bloody insanity, and I can't see an easy fix no matter how hard I look
The guy brought me a coffee in the cruise on several occasions, was always friendly enough. Everyone was pretty amazed to hear the news.
Obviously a lot of "holy-
" and "what-if" scenarios were discussed among the pilots in the days after his arrest.We'll never know but I for one am very glad that there was NO policy requiring hosties to be left alone with one pilot at that time, because that would obviously have been the best time for the bad guys to attack.
What's the answer to that one, have TWO cabin crew up the front, one to supervise the other? Where does the paranoia end?
Bloody insanity, and I can't see an easy fix no matter how hard I look
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All these airlines have jumped to the rapid conclucsion that the way to solve this is to put a member of cabin crew on the flight deck when the other pilot leaves. I take it then it follows that an assumption has been made that all cabin crew don't have any stress in their life and they would never carry out any action similar. So you're putting a random cabin crew member in a flight deck with a pilot strapped in his seat, and a crash axe within easy access. It's no different! It just another potential problem on the flight deck. It will solve nothing
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I see one solution :
that the regular doctor is in relation with the aeronautic doctor.
Meaning that each person must have a regular doctor, the medical (aeronautic) request his name, so they can exchange any major problems.
that the regular doctor is in relation with the aeronautic doctor.
Meaning that each person must have a regular doctor, the medical (aeronautic) request his name, so they can exchange any major problems.
But one coul still lie to the the GP well
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the comment of a psychologist
For what is worth: yesterday night I asked a friend of mine who's a psychologist about this case.
He said of course (as any 'shrink' does) that 'you have to know the person', but added that if you want to commit 'suicide' you do it on your own.
If he chose to kill 150 people with him, he probably 'harbored a deep sense of hatred/resentment' towards everyone else. He added that 'you must know the person', again, but to him this seemed more connected to a psychotic unbalance than to a depression.
He hardly doubts that (previously) no one noticed anything 'strange' about this person's behaviour (that was also confirmed by another psychologist on TV, so I think it's true).
As others pointed out, I also am perplexed at seeing (too?) many people still in 'denial phase', not willing to accept or even consider the idea that this was really intentional (if the BEA made those considerations at the press conference they are certain, that I fully trust).
A big part of the German audience (I noticed reading comments yesterday) simply refuses to accept what the BEA officials said, to the point of being more concerned/preoccupied by the privacy issues related with the disclosure of the pilot's name (and 'oh, who will protect his family') than with the terrible act that's been commited (i.e. focus not on the tragedy itself, but on totally secundary privacy issues, and similar... like 'I do not want to face/accept it', let's speak about other details).
He said of course (as any 'shrink' does) that 'you have to know the person', but added that if you want to commit 'suicide' you do it on your own.
If he chose to kill 150 people with him, he probably 'harbored a deep sense of hatred/resentment' towards everyone else. He added that 'you must know the person', again, but to him this seemed more connected to a psychotic unbalance than to a depression.
He hardly doubts that (previously) no one noticed anything 'strange' about this person's behaviour (that was also confirmed by another psychologist on TV, so I think it's true).
As others pointed out, I also am perplexed at seeing (too?) many people still in 'denial phase', not willing to accept or even consider the idea that this was really intentional (if the BEA made those considerations at the press conference they are certain, that I fully trust).
A big part of the German audience (I noticed reading comments yesterday) simply refuses to accept what the BEA officials said, to the point of being more concerned/preoccupied by the privacy issues related with the disclosure of the pilot's name (and 'oh, who will protect his family') than with the terrible act that's been commited (i.e. focus not on the tragedy itself, but on totally secundary privacy issues, and similar... like 'I do not want to face/accept it', let's speak about other details).
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It would be easy on the A380 that I fly to solve this.....merely move the locking door down to the bottom of the cockpit-access stairs. This would leave the flight deck with a self-contained lavatory and therefore nobody requiring to leve the flight deck for a physiological break.
It also has the added atteaction of not having pax coming up those stairs to the toilet, right outside of the flight deck, as is the case now. Still cant believe that this is deemed acceptable from a security point of view. But let us not digress with a debate on this bit!
It also has the added atteaction of not having pax coming up those stairs to the toilet, right outside of the flight deck, as is the case now. Still cant believe that this is deemed acceptable from a security point of view. But let us not digress with a debate on this bit!
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@ oldchina
Thank you for pointing this out. There are so many facts missing which the rainbow press actually loves. Read all about it - style headlines is what they live off. But on a serious note: This Co-P might have been on strong medication and as someone mentioned before, it can turn you into a zombie or maniac. For example, I knew a lady who took sleeping pills and as a side effect she would have dream-like states while awake, acting out her dream. After 30 mins or more she would snap back into reality. Another man I knew tried sleeping pills once and lost his ability too speak for an hour (these were side effects stated in the leaflet). The Co-P might have been on any kind of meds, even more so if we assume that he did suffer from some previous ailments, which could have rendered him zonked-out but breathing normally. I can't help but feel for him, as he is no longer there to defend himself. How many times has history proven that a scapegoat was just that and not responsible for the actions which were blamed on him? The investigation will surely look at his medical records, private belongings, conduct autopsies on PAX and crew etc. before reaching a conclusion. And from a perspective in the cabin: I've flown with many pilots, who during layovers talk about all sorts of personal problems, but they are capable of separating personal from professional once they put on the uniform!
Thank you for pointing this out. There are so many facts missing which the rainbow press actually loves. Read all about it - style headlines is what they live off. But on a serious note: This Co-P might have been on strong medication and as someone mentioned before, it can turn you into a zombie or maniac. For example, I knew a lady who took sleeping pills and as a side effect she would have dream-like states while awake, acting out her dream. After 30 mins or more she would snap back into reality. Another man I knew tried sleeping pills once and lost his ability too speak for an hour (these were side effects stated in the leaflet). The Co-P might have been on any kind of meds, even more so if we assume that he did suffer from some previous ailments, which could have rendered him zonked-out but breathing normally. I can't help but feel for him, as he is no longer there to defend himself. How many times has history proven that a scapegoat was just that and not responsible for the actions which were blamed on him? The investigation will surely look at his medical records, private belongings, conduct autopsies on PAX and crew etc. before reaching a conclusion. And from a perspective in the cabin: I've flown with many pilots, who during layovers talk about all sorts of personal problems, but they are capable of separating personal from professional once they put on the uniform!
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GLOFISH,
Could not agree more,blame the pilots, while LH boss crying crocodile tears, while earning how many millions of dollars!!??
Given this tragic incident, it could well be argued that Pilots conditions have as much input into the well being of the Company than any over paid management!!
As a Pilot your every word in the cockpit is recorded, very few jobs have anything like this level of scrutiny!!
Were as for example, how many Patients have died on the operating table, because of one mistake by the Doctor, but try and prove it!!
Perhaps they should have video and audio surveillance when they operate?
Could not agree more,blame the pilots, while LH boss crying crocodile tears, while earning how many millions of dollars!!??
Given this tragic incident, it could well be argued that Pilots conditions have as much input into the well being of the Company than any over paid management!!
As a Pilot your every word in the cockpit is recorded, very few jobs have anything like this level of scrutiny!!
Were as for example, how many Patients have died on the operating table, because of one mistake by the Doctor, but try and prove it!!
Perhaps they should have video and audio surveillance when they operate?