Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France
Psychophysiological entity
I think this is the one that rang a bell. Flight standards skipper with huge experience one moment, and barking the next. There was some discussion at the time that these products may have been a trigger to a psychotic episode.
The young co-pilot of 9525 may well have been okay despite his history, but then an ingredient of these bizarre 'health' food things may just have been a trigger.
Yes, it's far-fetched, but there has to be a reason for the decent into such a deep disturbance. Just one line of thought.
The young co-pilot of 9525 may well have been okay despite his history, but then an ingredient of these bizarre 'health' food things may just have been a trigger.
Yes, it's far-fetched, but there has to be a reason for the decent into such a deep disturbance. Just one line of thought.
Jet Blue
Osbon has been flying for jetBlue since the airline launched in 2000 and has a sideline selling weight-loss products, including a “shake mix that tastes like a cake mix.”
Osbon has been flying for jetBlue since the airline launched in 2000 and has a sideline selling weight-loss products, including a “shake mix that tastes like a cake mix.”
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How can breathing be heard on the CVR ?
Perhaps only if he was wearing a mask. If he was wearing a mask then there is a possibility that the gas mixture was off causing strange behaviour.
There were 8 minutes after the descent. The pilot comes back and finds no answer from inside. Well he isn't going to put an axe through the door immediately. He will probably ring a few times and then knock on the door. That's 2 minutes gone.
He is in an unknown and weird situation, so decides to override the door, tries to remember the code and puts it in ... maybe he pressed a wrong digit. Then he has to wait 5 minutes to try it again ??? Is that how the mechanism works. There is not enough time.
Of course we could all jump into the hysteria and call it terrorism, and force all pilots to take a double-dose of prozac before lift off.
Perhaps only if he was wearing a mask. If he was wearing a mask then there is a possibility that the gas mixture was off causing strange behaviour.
There were 8 minutes after the descent. The pilot comes back and finds no answer from inside. Well he isn't going to put an axe through the door immediately. He will probably ring a few times and then knock on the door. That's 2 minutes gone.
He is in an unknown and weird situation, so decides to override the door, tries to remember the code and puts it in ... maybe he pressed a wrong digit. Then he has to wait 5 minutes to try it again ??? Is that how the mechanism works. There is not enough time.
Of course we could all jump into the hysteria and call it terrorism, and force all pilots to take a double-dose of prozac before lift off.
If he inputs the wrong emergency code IT IS NOT THE EMERGENCY CODE.
Anyway the 5 mins is from the copilot switching to lock based on hearing the 30sec emergency code buzzer
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We passengers are vigilant too....
Try Googling "Incidents of passengers subduing threats since 9/11".
We really are concerned that you guys are safe. Perhaps the idea of locking yourselves inside a fortress is outdated.
We really are concerned that you guys are safe. Perhaps the idea of locking yourselves inside a fortress is outdated.
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Major depressive episodes
According to a report by German tabloid Bild, six years ago the co-pilot had to interrupt his training for six months due to a "major depressive episode". Apparently he was in psychiatric care during that time. The report further states that in his personell file it is noted he should get special medical care regularly.
Although Bild is usually well connected, they tend to dramatize, so take this with a grain of salt. That said, I am astonished that a guy with severe depressive episodes gets a front seat in an airliner.
Although Bild is usually well connected, they tend to dramatize, so take this with a grain of salt. That said, I am astonished that a guy with severe depressive episodes gets a front seat in an airliner.
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I'd rather pay for an air marshal to spend the duration of the flight in the jumpseat...
...and what would a marshal do to prevent a pilot from putting an aircraft into a spin? Or shutting off all engines? Or selecting full flaps at MACH 0.81/FL380? Another pilot?
Its a catch-22...
Let's stop the hysteria. The immediate reasonable thing to do is to bring a cabin crew member to the cockpit while one of the pilots is temporary out of the flight deck.
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Next Gen Cockpits are Coming
I work for a well known giant aerospace avionics company that is now drafting preliminary designs for the next generation cockpit of the future. The new generation cockpits targeted to be incorporated with newer airplane designs of 15 years from now, will prove as innovative in the 2030's as when today's computerized cockpits were when eliminating the Flight Engineer back in the 1980's.
Although details are still in the preliminary design phase, the innovative concept being worked on is to place the PIC in the airplane while placing the second in command on the ground. Both would be capable of equal control of the airplane if necessary, and either pilot would have a relief airman when with long range flights. Such a concept along with other benefit's, would almost certainly insure a survivor /witness in every crash.
Although details are still in the preliminary design phase, the innovative concept being worked on is to place the PIC in the airplane while placing the second in command on the ground. Both would be capable of equal control of the airplane if necessary, and either pilot would have a relief airman when with long range flights. Such a concept along with other benefit's, would almost certainly insure a survivor /witness in every crash.
Re Wunwing's Post
I agree totally with he has suggested, that is, nothing has been definitely proved as yet. Yes it certainly does appear, that someone could not obtain access from the cabin to the F/D, are we absolutely sure beyond all doubt, this was the Captain & not the F/O for example. As with so very many serious aircraft accidents / incidents, there are very many individual factors involved in the lead up to the event. The only people who really know what happened, are of course not able to tell. So, even with the information gathered so far, yes it looks likely that certain events happend & certain actions were taken, but there is surely, much more information & data yet to come to hand.
I agree totally with he has suggested, that is, nothing has been definitely proved as yet. Yes it certainly does appear, that someone could not obtain access from the cabin to the F/D, are we absolutely sure beyond all doubt, this was the Captain & not the F/O for example. As with so very many serious aircraft accidents / incidents, there are very many individual factors involved in the lead up to the event. The only people who really know what happened, are of course not able to tell. So, even with the information gathered so far, yes it looks likely that certain events happend & certain actions were taken, but there is surely, much more information & data yet to come to hand.
All this talk about can the CVR pick up breathing - YES!
All the microphones in the cockpit are "hot" to the cockpit voice recorder.
On numerous occasions I have listened to my fellow pilot's breathing, especially when concentrating on a challenging approach!
All the microphones in the cockpit are "hot" to the cockpit voice recorder.
On numerous occasions I have listened to my fellow pilot's breathing, especially when concentrating on a challenging approach!
Wi wing, you are wrong, I have been flying the A320 for many years for airlines all over the world and have never seen anyone don oxygen when the other pilot leaves the flight deck. His breathing could have been picked up if he was wearing his headset with boom mic. The major airline I worked for in Europe always required you to have your headset on throughout the flight. Sure there might be a highly complicated scenario at play here, but simple facts are this guy has a history of mental illness, took actions that crashed the aircraft and prevented any other crew accessing the flight deck. Sometimes 1+1 does equal 2.
Co-pilot on the ground
So we don't have the bandwidth for real-time recording, because that would need way too many satellites and be too expensive but we will have enough to operate the aircraft from ground stations.
That should save a dollar or two!!
That should save a dollar or two!!
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When ground testing a CVR, the area mic will pick up the sound of you moving in the seat, dropping an ink pen, passing gas, etc.
Several thoughts:
So they set the timer to 5 min, is this via software or strapping? And in any routine mx do they physically check the time? Assuming set for 5 min, means 5 min is taking it on faith, something we tend to frown on in aviation.
Machinery breaks, normally at the most inconvient time. But then again so do humans.
I have no doubt that they can tell the difference between an unguarded and guarded toggle switch being flipped. But without FDR data or associated aural warnings, telling which guarded switch is just supposition at this point.
I am somewhat leery of releasing information piecemeal that fits a supposition, no matter how likely it is.
We all are a small community, no make that family. And while they have made it sound like crazy uncle joe may well have done it on purpose, they haven't proved it to me to the point that I'm willing to make him a mass murderer. So until further data is made available, could we all refrain from making statements that make it seem as absolute fact?
Several thoughts:
So they set the timer to 5 min, is this via software or strapping? And in any routine mx do they physically check the time? Assuming set for 5 min, means 5 min is taking it on faith, something we tend to frown on in aviation.
Machinery breaks, normally at the most inconvient time. But then again so do humans.
I have no doubt that they can tell the difference between an unguarded and guarded toggle switch being flipped. But without FDR data or associated aural warnings, telling which guarded switch is just supposition at this point.
I am somewhat leery of releasing information piecemeal that fits a supposition, no matter how likely it is.
We all are a small community, no make that family. And while they have made it sound like crazy uncle joe may well have done it on purpose, they haven't proved it to me to the point that I'm willing to make him a mass murderer. So until further data is made available, could we all refrain from making statements that make it seem as absolute fact?
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Lots of people in lots of different jobs have to deal with being videoed. Bankers, workers in shopping centres, airport staff, workers at McDonalds, security staff, staff at bars and clubs, law enforcement officers, public transport, cabs, call centre staff.... Why on earth are pilots anything special?
The dual goals of video are to deter crime, and to provide evidence if a crime takes place.
Most people support video when they are being protected, and are less supportive when they are being recorded in order to protect others. Then it becomes an insult and an invasion of privacy......
As with many other things in society, it is a two edged sword. Again, why are pilots a special case?
Most employees have to be a bit careful about what they say and do in company time on company premises. Its called common sense and diplomacy. If you want to slag off about management, its usually best to do it in your own time away from the office. Its not that difficult.
Pilots have historically been a bit of an exception. In a 1:1 conversation well away from management, pilots have argued the right to "privacy" - while on company time, sitting in very expensive company assets, and entrusted with the lives of 100's of the company's customers.
Expect this exception to disappear.
Just like real time tracking of aircraft post MH370, the customers (you know, the people in the back that ultimately pay your wages and without whom you would not have a job) will increasingly demand video security in the flight deck.
The dual goals of video are to deter crime, and to provide evidence if a crime takes place.
Most people support video when they are being protected, and are less supportive when they are being recorded in order to protect others. Then it becomes an insult and an invasion of privacy......
As with many other things in society, it is a two edged sword. Again, why are pilots a special case?
Most employees have to be a bit careful about what they say and do in company time on company premises. Its called common sense and diplomacy. If you want to slag off about management, its usually best to do it in your own time away from the office. Its not that difficult.
Pilots have historically been a bit of an exception. In a 1:1 conversation well away from management, pilots have argued the right to "privacy" - while on company time, sitting in very expensive company assets, and entrusted with the lives of 100's of the company's customers.
Expect this exception to disappear.
Just like real time tracking of aircraft post MH370, the customers (you know, the people in the back that ultimately pay your wages and without whom you would not have a job) will increasingly demand video security in the flight deck.
The simple truth is that video surveillance would add very little in 99.99% of investigations. Investigators can derive a remarkable amount of information from audio recordings. FD mikes are incredibly sensitive, and all other connected mikes (boom mikes on headsets etc) are usually recorded too on most modern types. And multiple mics allow for an impressive amount of conclusions to be drawn - such as exactly where on the FD sounds are coming from. Different switches, levers, controls all make slightly different noises - these can be examined in great detail and firm conclusions drawn in most cases.
To include video recording would require significant modifications - the recorders would need a huge capacity increase, likely needing a redesign, or the installation of an additional recorder. And a cheapo solution like a GoPro would be useless - the recorders are built the way they are, and installed where they are, for a purpose - crashworthiness - and assuring that purpose is NOT cheap.
Neither is the re-certification of ALL the aircraft so modified, to ensure that the mod hasn't introduced new problems with the rest of the carefully-designed aircraft systems.
In short, it will be a significant cost - for probably very little real benefit - even before we get into privacy issues.
A FAR CHEAPER option would be to hire more pilots - to take the pressure off already over-worked and stressed crews. And train them properly. And pay them better. And.... And...
And it would have done nothing to prevent what happened on this flight - and likely shed very little additional light on the eventual happenings.
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Anybody looked into the mental condition called "OCD"? That's Obsessive Compulsion Disorder, where the sufferer is under a compulsion to perform senseless acts. We all have it to a certain extent, like having an impulse to shout out something obscene at a church service.
A planeful of pax should never be allowed to be under the complete control of one person. "They're all mine" would occur to the helpless victim of this condition, and there's no way of identifying him or her in the training.
It is a given that there should always be more than one person in the cockpit at all times, otherwise more such events will be inevitable.
A planeful of pax should never be allowed to be under the complete control of one person. "They're all mine" would occur to the helpless victim of this condition, and there's no way of identifying him or her in the training.
It is a given that there should always be more than one person in the cockpit at all times, otherwise more such events will be inevitable.
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Terrorism has a very specific definition tied in with political aims, and this (and potentially MH370) ain't it - that has nothing to do with stereotypes, just legal & academic definitions. This is a simple case of mass murder - essentially the same as some fed up kid shooting up his school & committing suicide, or some office worker "going postal". Only in this case the weapon was a stick & the victims were all aboard.
How We All Miss the Point on School Shootings
The thesis is that the more accurate definition of 'terrorism' is in the method, not the motive. When you kill a lot of innocent people in an extremely public and brutal way, doing something that will dominate the media for days and weeks, that IS a form of terrorism, whatever the precise motive.
As the author of that article pointed out in respect of school shootings and other mass murders, it's about the TV ratings, the publicity, the message, being remembered, becoming a household name; whatever the motivation, personal or political, it's an act of terrorism. That's the correct lens to view this kind of act through.
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For those who think the A-320 door ought to be "somehow modified" as a result of this terrible event, there is always two sides to a story. Here is the other side of the story:
Jet Blue is an American "Low Cost" carrier.
March 28, 2012
By Tina Susman
New York — Federal authorities on Wednesday charged a Jet Blue pilot whose midair meltdown on a New York-to-Las Vegas flight forced his co-pilot to lock him out of the cockpit and make an emergency landing while passengers restrained the distraught captain.
The pilot, Clayton Osbon, was charged with interfering with a flight crew by the U.S. attorney in Amarillo, Texas, where the plane made its emergency landing, the Associated Press and Amarillo.com reported.
A Jet Blue spokeswoman, Sharon Jones, told The Times that Osbon, who lives in Georgia but is based in New York City, had been taken off duty pending an investigation into Tuesday's incident on Flight 191. The airline refused to comment on whether Osbon would continue to receive his salary during the suspension, but Jones said that "he is still employed with Jet Blue."
Osbon's rant began when the flight was more than three hours into its journey. Witnesses, several of whom recorded video of the incident, said the pilot became enraged after he was locked out of the cockpit by his co-pilot, who had become worried by the captain's erratic behavior. A passenger on the jet who was an off-duty pilot entered the cockpit and helped land the plane as several passengers used their belts and plastic handcuffs to hold down Osbon. Osbon was taken off the jet in Amarillo and hospitalized.
Jet Blue said the FBI was investigating the incident, which it said appeared to be more the result of a medical issue than security-related. "As the events unfolded, it became clear that security was also an element of this episode, but not the overriding issue in our opinion. The FBI has said terrorism is not a factor in this incident," the airline said on its blog, Blue Tales.
Jet Blue noted that it was the first airline to install bulletproof cockpit doors, which are "coded and virtually impenetrable. When the flight crew inside the deck close and lock that door, no one can get in."
It expressed gratitude to the customers who helped pin down Osbon and said all the passengers on board the jet, which eventually landed in Las Vegas after its unscheduled stop in Amarillo, would be refunded their fares and given a voucher for twice the value of their original tickets.
By Tina Susman
New York — Federal authorities on Wednesday charged a Jet Blue pilot whose midair meltdown on a New York-to-Las Vegas flight forced his co-pilot to lock him out of the cockpit and make an emergency landing while passengers restrained the distraught captain.
The pilot, Clayton Osbon, was charged with interfering with a flight crew by the U.S. attorney in Amarillo, Texas, where the plane made its emergency landing, the Associated Press and Amarillo.com reported.
A Jet Blue spokeswoman, Sharon Jones, told The Times that Osbon, who lives in Georgia but is based in New York City, had been taken off duty pending an investigation into Tuesday's incident on Flight 191. The airline refused to comment on whether Osbon would continue to receive his salary during the suspension, but Jones said that "he is still employed with Jet Blue."
Osbon's rant began when the flight was more than three hours into its journey. Witnesses, several of whom recorded video of the incident, said the pilot became enraged after he was locked out of the cockpit by his co-pilot, who had become worried by the captain's erratic behavior. A passenger on the jet who was an off-duty pilot entered the cockpit and helped land the plane as several passengers used their belts and plastic handcuffs to hold down Osbon. Osbon was taken off the jet in Amarillo and hospitalized.
Jet Blue said the FBI was investigating the incident, which it said appeared to be more the result of a medical issue than security-related. "As the events unfolded, it became clear that security was also an element of this episode, but not the overriding issue in our opinion. The FBI has said terrorism is not a factor in this incident," the airline said on its blog, Blue Tales.
Jet Blue noted that it was the first airline to install bulletproof cockpit doors, which are "coded and virtually impenetrable. When the flight crew inside the deck close and lock that door, no one can get in."
It expressed gratitude to the customers who helped pin down Osbon and said all the passengers on board the jet, which eventually landed in Las Vegas after its unscheduled stop in Amarillo, would be refunded their fares and given a voucher for twice the value of their original tickets.
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Why not have biometric authentication from *both* flight deck crew to change FMS settings at cruise level. It takes less than a second for my iPhone to authenticate fingerprint.
I mean we already have elaborate authentication mechanisms for nuclear launch sequences and such. How hard would it be to implement something simple to thwart the crazies in the cockpit.
I mean we already have elaborate authentication mechanisms for nuclear launch sequences and such. How hard would it be to implement something simple to thwart the crazies in the cockpit.
Props are for boats!
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2 options here.
1. Move the cockpit door to include the forward toilet in the Flightdeck. Or have doors to secure the forward galley and have only crew members use the forward toilet.
2. But the 2 crewmembers on Flightdeck at all times is a good policy. My Company has the same policy and we are in the Far East. It was the MH370 loss that stimulated that change for us. Some companies in Europe and now in Asia, have adopted this policy. My thinking is though an ICAO directive or recommendation should be inplace. Then individual states should enforce adoption of such a policy. Even it being already inforce through the FAA. Also Insurance companies should be pushing for this policy aswell.
1. Move the cockpit door to include the forward toilet in the Flightdeck. Or have doors to secure the forward galley and have only crew members use the forward toilet.
2. But the 2 crewmembers on Flightdeck at all times is a good policy. My Company has the same policy and we are in the Far East. It was the MH370 loss that stimulated that change for us. Some companies in Europe and now in Asia, have adopted this policy. My thinking is though an ICAO directive or recommendation should be inplace. Then individual states should enforce adoption of such a policy. Even it being already inforce through the FAA. Also Insurance companies should be pushing for this policy aswell.