Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France
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First post, registered since 2008.
I post only to state that we must change the industry to one where a pilot is given every support possible - industry-paid training, a buddy/apprentice program, and a liveable salary from day one. It's impossible to remove all forms of stress, but harried working conditions and financial stress do not make for good humans, let alone good pilots.
I post only to state that we must change the industry to one where a pilot is given every support possible - industry-paid training, a buddy/apprentice program, and a liveable salary from day one. It's impossible to remove all forms of stress, but harried working conditions and financial stress do not make for good humans, let alone good pilots.
AKAAB:
[QUOTE]The real crux of the situation is that we pilots are forced to avoid mental health treatment, even basic counseling, because it becomes a required reporting item on our next FAA physical exam. On top of that, most insurance doesn't adequately cover mental health care and our Loss of License insurance limits our coverage if it is for mental health reasons. The pilot with issues is forced to deal with them himself or risk losing his job. (Alcohol, anyone?) The entire system pretends pilots don't have mental struggles at some point in their lives, and those that admit to it are marked for the rest of their careers. /QUOTE]
Well said, but will the industry confront this question or stick their head in the sand?
[QUOTE]The real crux of the situation is that we pilots are forced to avoid mental health treatment, even basic counseling, because it becomes a required reporting item on our next FAA physical exam. On top of that, most insurance doesn't adequately cover mental health care and our Loss of License insurance limits our coverage if it is for mental health reasons. The pilot with issues is forced to deal with them himself or risk losing his job. (Alcohol, anyone?) The entire system pretends pilots don't have mental struggles at some point in their lives, and those that admit to it are marked for the rest of their careers. /QUOTE]
Well said, but will the industry confront this question or stick their head in the sand?
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Experts applaud Transport Canada’s decision on new cockpit rules
Ian Campbell Mar 26, 2015 02:32:39 PM
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Industry experts say they’re all for a move from Transport Canada to force Canadian airlines to have two people in the cockpit at all times.
It comes following initial reports from investigators that the co-pilot of Germanwings flight 9525 deliberately crashed his plane in the French Alps.
“I’m stunned, absolutely stunned that a pilot in anyway, shape or form could cause grief to an airplane,” said one spokesperson. “I just can’t understand that, and this has happened before, look at the Malaysian Airlines flight that disappeared in the Indian Ocean.”
Ruth-Ann Rayner is a former flight attendant with Pan-American Airlines and she said in her day, they had four in the cockpit.
“We had four in our cockpits because we had 707s and DC-8s, there were always to be at least two in the cockpit, this was in the days prior to locked doors,” she said. “If there were two of the four out of cockpit, for whatever reason, quite often they would tap one of us flight attendants to come up and be an extra voice or pair of years in the cockpit.”
“It’s not unusual anymore because there are two in the cockpit and when they are entering or exiting and the door is open, the flight attendants stand in the galley, so no passengers can get up to the washroom and into the cockpit.”
Wings Magazine Editor Matt Nicholls believes the move today could be the start of an industry-wide change.
“Airlines across the world try to meet a very high standard of aviation safety, throughout the board, not only in the cockpit but on the engineering side and I know every airline strives to meet an extremely high level. So it’s very disappointing for them and a tragedy for the community when something happens,” he said.
“It sounds like a given, having two people in the cockpit makes sense if anything happens in terms of mechanical failure but also in the event of a horrible tragedy, like this, where someone’s mental state is in question or there is unforeseen circumstances on the flight deck, it makes sense to have both bodies in there.”
“This is just one more element that I’m sure will be adopted across the board,” Nicholls said.
Air Canada was first out of the gate today with its statement:
“Regarding flight deck protocols and access, as these involve security measures we cannot discuss them. Air Canada is compliant with CARs and ICAO recommended practices. However following initial reports on the Germanwings accident we are implementing without delay a policy change to ensure that all flights have two people in the cockpit at all times.”
WestJet issued the following Transport Canada’s decision:
“WestJet will implement a change in policy to ensure the presence of two members of the flight crew in the flight deck at all times. For reasons of safety and security, we will not comment further on flight deck protocols.”
Ian Campbell Mar 26, 2015 02:32:39 PM
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Industry experts say they’re all for a move from Transport Canada to force Canadian airlines to have two people in the cockpit at all times.
It comes following initial reports from investigators that the co-pilot of Germanwings flight 9525 deliberately crashed his plane in the French Alps.
“I’m stunned, absolutely stunned that a pilot in anyway, shape or form could cause grief to an airplane,” said one spokesperson. “I just can’t understand that, and this has happened before, look at the Malaysian Airlines flight that disappeared in the Indian Ocean.”
Ruth-Ann Rayner is a former flight attendant with Pan-American Airlines and she said in her day, they had four in the cockpit.
“We had four in our cockpits because we had 707s and DC-8s, there were always to be at least two in the cockpit, this was in the days prior to locked doors,” she said. “If there were two of the four out of cockpit, for whatever reason, quite often they would tap one of us flight attendants to come up and be an extra voice or pair of years in the cockpit.”
“It’s not unusual anymore because there are two in the cockpit and when they are entering or exiting and the door is open, the flight attendants stand in the galley, so no passengers can get up to the washroom and into the cockpit.”
Wings Magazine Editor Matt Nicholls believes the move today could be the start of an industry-wide change.
“Airlines across the world try to meet a very high standard of aviation safety, throughout the board, not only in the cockpit but on the engineering side and I know every airline strives to meet an extremely high level. So it’s very disappointing for them and a tragedy for the community when something happens,” he said.
“It sounds like a given, having two people in the cockpit makes sense if anything happens in terms of mechanical failure but also in the event of a horrible tragedy, like this, where someone’s mental state is in question or there is unforeseen circumstances on the flight deck, it makes sense to have both bodies in there.”
“This is just one more element that I’m sure will be adopted across the board,” Nicholls said.
Air Canada was first out of the gate today with its statement:
“Regarding flight deck protocols and access, as these involve security measures we cannot discuss them. Air Canada is compliant with CARs and ICAO recommended practices. However following initial reports on the Germanwings accident we are implementing without delay a policy change to ensure that all flights have two people in the cockpit at all times.”
WestJet issued the following Transport Canada’s decision:
“WestJet will implement a change in policy to ensure the presence of two members of the flight crew in the flight deck at all times. For reasons of safety and security, we will not comment further on flight deck protocols.”
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for those not liking the murder scenario, evidence shows he was aware and operative, has to have operated the lock switch twice to prevent emergency entrance code working). Can't have been mixup confused about a mess he had got in, plenty of time to A) get up and open the door, B) call the ground.
Read this non suicide post by PACE far more fitting with the events.
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5...ml#post8919354
Read this non suicide post by PACE far more fitting with the events.
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5...ml#post8919354
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DenisG makes a very good point at post number 1586:
Why did the French prosecutor in his hasty sweeping statement today not mention this, or lack of it?
(2) Has/have the Captain and crew attempted to use the security code to enter the FD (30 sec call sound on FD, should be hearable on CVR)? If not, why?
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There really needs to be some educating here with regards to the procedure of having a cabin crew present when a pilot leaves the flight deck.
It has absolutly nothing to do with stopping a pilot from doing something he/she shouldn't do.
You need to visually verify from the pilot seated position who is trying to access the flight deck. On some types of aircraft a CCTV monitor shows the seated pilot who is at the door.
Some types do not have this and therefore need a cabin crew member in the flight deck to look through a peep hole in the door so the pilot can stay seated at the controls.
Some airlines have adopted to keep this policy even if the type of aircraft has changed or been updated to allow a CCTV/Monitor from a seated position to be installed. But the origins of the procedure and the legalities of needing to do it are firmly routed in monitoring who is accessing the flight deck, not to prevent pilot suicide.
If it was a pilot suicide prevention procedure its got some rather gaping holes in it!
It has absolutly nothing to do with stopping a pilot from doing something he/she shouldn't do.
You need to visually verify from the pilot seated position who is trying to access the flight deck. On some types of aircraft a CCTV monitor shows the seated pilot who is at the door.
Some types do not have this and therefore need a cabin crew member in the flight deck to look through a peep hole in the door so the pilot can stay seated at the controls.
Some airlines have adopted to keep this policy even if the type of aircraft has changed or been updated to allow a CCTV/Monitor from a seated position to be installed. But the origins of the procedure and the legalities of needing to do it are firmly routed in monitoring who is accessing the flight deck, not to prevent pilot suicide.
If it was a pilot suicide prevention procedure its got some rather gaping holes in it!
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with my medical /psychotherapist hat on, even people with personality disorders (likely a full blown Narcissist with Narcissistic Personality disorder could have a rageful outburst like this) but even these people still have a desire to live - suicidal ideation is a different ball game entirely.
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So. Lufthansa appear to have said that here is no stopping a 'rogue pilot'.
To commit mass murder.
Sorry, Lufthansa. Not good enough.
If this is how you, as a company, feel, why would anyone risk their lives flying with you? Ever again?
To commit mass murder.
Sorry, Lufthansa. Not good enough.
If this is how you, as a company, feel, why would anyone risk their lives flying with you? Ever again?
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Everybody seems to be very enthousiastic about the idea to have two people in the flight deck at all times. To be honest, I am not. We have the cockpit door to keep terrorists out. If all the terrorist needs to do to get past it is apply for a job as cabin crew, the door is not of much use anymore.
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It's time that the management of any airline starts paying a little more attention to fatigue, stress and the human behind the crewnumber.
You can't put those young guys with huge debts, huge amounts of stress, alarming fatigue levels and no time for social support at home and pretend that everything will be fine.
Where is EASA and europe when our pilots are suffering? Stop talking about the cockpit door procedure, and let's talk about the real problem!
You can't put those young guys with huge debts, huge amounts of stress, alarming fatigue levels and no time for social support at home and pretend that everything will be fine.
Where is EASA and europe when our pilots are suffering? Stop talking about the cockpit door procedure, and let's talk about the real problem!
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Quote:
Someone who has embarked on a suicidal path often feels a sense of peace - they're no longer going to have to deal with the constant emotional pain.
AirScotia
Pace
The prosecutor has discounted suicide
You're being picky. Whilst , if guilty we determine the act murder, the individual may have decided upon suicide
Someone who has embarked on a suicidal path often feels a sense of peace - they're no longer going to have to deal with the constant emotional pain.
AirScotia
Pace
The prosecutor has discounted suicide
You're being picky. Whilst , if guilty we determine the act murder, the individual may have decided upon suicide
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Dried Ears: "DenisG makes a very good point at post number 1586:
'(2) Has/have the Captain and crew attempted to use the security code to enter the FD (30 sec call sound on FD, should be hearable on CVR)? If not, why?'
Why did the French prosecutor in his hasty sweeping statement today not mention this, or lack of it?"
Probably because they didn't hear it? And as many have pointed out already, if the door is set to "locked", the buzzer would be inhibited.
'(2) Has/have the Captain and crew attempted to use the security code to enter the FD (30 sec call sound on FD, should be hearable on CVR)? If not, why?'
Why did the French prosecutor in his hasty sweeping statement today not mention this, or lack of it?"
Probably because they didn't hear it? And as many have pointed out already, if the door is set to "locked", the buzzer would be inhibited.
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Why go to lengths to explain.
Many questions here regarding ejecting FDRs, iPad control, live video monotoring, flight attendant emergency phones, and armed babysitters; all written by those who fail to grasp the bottom line: That you cannot foil someone intent on doing harm. You simply cannot.
Many questions here regarding ejecting FDRs, iPad control, live video monotoring, flight attendant emergency phones, and armed babysitters; all written by those who fail to grasp the bottom line: That you cannot foil someone intent on doing harm. You simply cannot.
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Hi,
No alarm will sound if the pilot in the cockpit had set the "lock" position on the door .. as he made !
DenisG makes a very good point at post number 1586:
Quote:
(2) Has/have the Captain and crew attempted to use the security code to enter the FD (30 sec call sound on FD, should be hearable on CVR)? If not, why?
Why did the French prosecutor in his hasty sweeping statement today not mention this, or lack of it?
Quote:
(2) Has/have the Captain and crew attempted to use the security code to enter the FD (30 sec call sound on FD, should be hearable on CVR)? If not, why?
Why did the French prosecutor in his hasty sweeping statement today not mention this, or lack of it?
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On the plus side, the single-pilot airliner scheme discussion is squelched forever. Pilotless airliners - still on the table, but only after we have a decade of driverless cars and zero accidents.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MsCaptain View Post
emjanssen: How do they know the FO started the descent without data from the FDR?
This is one thing that is troubling me as well.
This conclusion can reasonably be made by cross matching the timestamps of the ADB mode-s "selected altitude" messages with the timing of the sounds of someone pushing FMC buttons on the CVR.
Quote:
09:30:52Z.386 MCP/FMC ALT: 38000 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa
09:30:52Z.567 T,3c6618,43.122208,5.676482,38000,GWI18G
09:30:53Z.036 T,3c6618,43.122894,5.676993,38000,GWI18G
09:30:53Z.546 T,3c6618,43.124271,5.678166,38000,GWI18G
09:30:54Z.083 MCP/FMC ALT: 13008 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa
09:30:54Z.096 T,3c6618,43.125295,5.678689,38000,GWI18G
09:30:54Z.676 T,3c6618,43.125961,5.679421,38000,GWI18G
09:30:55Z.156 T,3c6618,43.127157,5.680259,38000,GWI18G
09:30:55Z.397 MCP/FMC ALT: 96 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa
Originally Posted by MsCaptain View Post
emjanssen: How do they know the FO started the descent without data from the FDR?
This is one thing that is troubling me as well.
This conclusion can reasonably be made by cross matching the timestamps of the ADB mode-s "selected altitude" messages with the timing of the sounds of someone pushing FMC buttons on the CVR.
Quote:
09:30:52Z.386 MCP/FMC ALT: 38000 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa
09:30:52Z.567 T,3c6618,43.122208,5.676482,38000,GWI18G
09:30:53Z.036 T,3c6618,43.122894,5.676993,38000,GWI18G
09:30:53Z.546 T,3c6618,43.124271,5.678166,38000,GWI18G
09:30:54Z.083 MCP/FMC ALT: 13008 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa
09:30:54Z.096 T,3c6618,43.125295,5.678689,38000,GWI18G
09:30:54Z.676 T,3c6618,43.125961,5.679421,38000,GWI18G
09:30:55Z.156 T,3c6618,43.127157,5.680259,38000,GWI18G
09:30:55Z.397 MCP/FMC ALT: 96 ft QNH: 1006.0 hPa
In my opinion the French Prosecutor is not following ICAO Annex 13.
Happy to read that IFALPA just came with a statement.
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Dried ears
This has been addressed numerous times
If locked and timing out the 30 sec buzzer does not sound
He probably locked it as soon as the cpt left the cabin
And a few times while he was trying to get in
The buzzer would never sound
It only sounds if in 'auto' mode to give the crew to verify ID
The door was locked
The plane was piloted into the ground
The ap alt was reset to 100'
The fo was alivecand breathing
Never requested help
All this in a few minute period
It took 8 minutes
The time out was 5
So if he was incapcitated and accidently locked the door the cpt could have gotten in after the 5 minutes expired
Since he could not it means the fo hit lock again
It's clear what happened
This has been addressed numerous times
If locked and timing out the 30 sec buzzer does not sound
He probably locked it as soon as the cpt left the cabin
And a few times while he was trying to get in
The buzzer would never sound
It only sounds if in 'auto' mode to give the crew to verify ID
The door was locked
The plane was piloted into the ground
The ap alt was reset to 100'
The fo was alivecand breathing
Never requested help
All this in a few minute period
It took 8 minutes
The time out was 5
So if he was incapcitated and accidently locked the door the cpt could have gotten in after the 5 minutes expired
Since he could not it means the fo hit lock again
It's clear what happened
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Altitude set once or more than once?
I have read all the posts before posting. I wish others did. I have not seen a resolution to whether the altitude set was made one time only, just before the beginning of descent, or whether there were subsequent resets, as has also been posted. This makes a big difference on the question of consciousness. The noise of breathing, without characterizing any changes in it, is by itself no proof of consciousness. If unconscious, knocking on the door, and musings about what one moral issues one thinks about during an 8 minute suicide, are moot confusions.
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Pace:
There are certain people who have anger management problems and cannot take criticism. On the surface they appear friendly until something triggers that anger and then they see Red, the anger becomes uncontrollable and they have to vent that anger on something or somebody.
Blind rage! and i stress the word BLIND
There are certain people who have anger management problems and cannot take criticism. On the surface they appear friendly until something triggers that anger and then they see Red, the anger becomes uncontrollable and they have to vent that anger on something or somebody.
Blind rage! and i stress the word BLIND
On the arrival he was holding a good bit more airspeed than I was comfortable with fairly late in the profile, however, so I reached over for the lever and casually announced that I was going to go ahead and deploy the slats.
He immediately slammed the throttles shut, turned to me red-faced and asked in an angry tone, "Do you want to fly this f**** thing yourself?"
Many things went through my mind in a fraction of a second, but I resisted the urge to say, "Why yes, I believe I do." I knew if I did, I would build a brick wall between us and I'd be flying solo. Transferring duties at that point and flying without normal call-outs would have compromised safety, since I knew he'd let me crash rather than say anything in his mental state.
We continued with standard call-outs, etc. and he flew an otherwise flawless approach and landing.
Once we left the airplane nothing was said between us, even during the trip to the layover hotel. I changed and went to the restaurant to find him sitting alone at a table. I sat down, ordered, and said nothing.
After a few minutes of silence he said, "I guess I shouldn't have said that." I started laughing and we then had a discussion about the vast differences between flying single seat fighters and airline transports.
The remainder of the trip was normal and we parted friends. But I was concerned enough about his cockpit explosion to follow his subsequent trips for awhile and touch base with his captains to see if there were any repeats of his cockpit outburst. Aside from a few nits, no captain had witnessed anything similar, so I dropped it. But I'd never before witnessed anything like it in 30-years of flying.
So you really never really know.....
