Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France
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sp3ctre
I just don't see how you can "fix" the problem of a pilot wanting to down a plane. Sure, you could bring in measures to make this particular situation less likely, but what is to stop a pilot in control of the aircraft stuffing it into a row of houses (or the airport terminal) on descent.
I just don't see how you can "fix" the problem of a pilot wanting to down a plane. Sure, you could bring in measures to make this particular situation less likely, but what is to stop a pilot in control of the aircraft stuffing it into a row of houses (or the airport terminal) on descent.
As such a system could have unwanted side-effects in case of emergencies, there should be an override option. But it's easy to come up with an system/procedure that can be operated quickly and intuitive but physically requires two people - or maybe even disables automatically upon a mechanical or environmental emergency.
The two-man rule is a well-known security measure and such a system will at least require two people conspiring to crash the plane or make a conscious decision to override the FCS protection for some good reason.
IMHO, door locking procedures should be revised as well. There should always be a way to get back in, possibly requiring ground clearance using a comms system from the cabin that cannot be overridden from the FD. From the ground, the decision to authorise opening the door in this case would have been easy: unauthorized descent, no contact with the flight deck and a captain standing outside wanting to get in.
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back into an era of 3 pilots in the cockpit?
Just a PPL here...
Wasn't it the case that Qantas used to have a policy that a low-hour junior would sit as the third pilot observing (even domestic flights) the two seniors and learning? If we had this, we would: 1) third set of eyes during take off/landings to raise awareness of any anomalies 2) great way to learn for the junior 3) decreased chance of any kind of situation like we are presumably looking at here. ... I am expecting that everyone is gonna say: 'Utopia!, Money!'...Well, what would stand against making the junior spend some time in the jump seat as part of the required airline training (ok - pay him the cabin crew rate, but I am pretty sure, he/she will still be keen on learning..)...or am I missing something /
Wasn't it the case that Qantas used to have a policy that a low-hour junior would sit as the third pilot observing (even domestic flights) the two seniors and learning? If we had this, we would: 1) third set of eyes during take off/landings to raise awareness of any anomalies 2) great way to learn for the junior 3) decreased chance of any kind of situation like we are presumably looking at here. ... I am expecting that everyone is gonna say: 'Utopia!, Money!'...Well, what would stand against making the junior spend some time in the jump seat as part of the required airline training (ok - pay him the cabin crew rate, but I am pretty sure, he/she will still be keen on learning..)...or am I missing something /
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Shocked by the statement that the co-pilot is to blame.
On the CVR he has apparently normal breathing to the end, I don't see that means anything at all.
It shifts the spotlight from the reinforced locked door policy, and for there not being 2 people in the cockpit at all times. And wraps up the case very quickly in light of numerous recent unexplained incidents.
I see no motive or evidence here for the co-pilot taking the blame.
Maybe he had a stroke, heart attack, took some drugs that knocked him out, or a part of the ceiling panel dropped on his head.
How can his breathing be normal if he is committing suicide and crashing a plane ?
On the CVR he has apparently normal breathing to the end, I don't see that means anything at all.
It shifts the spotlight from the reinforced locked door policy, and for there not being 2 people in the cockpit at all times. And wraps up the case very quickly in light of numerous recent unexplained incidents.
I see no motive or evidence here for the co-pilot taking the blame.
Maybe he had a stroke, heart attack, took some drugs that knocked him out, or a part of the ceiling panel dropped on his head.
How can his breathing be normal if he is committing suicide and crashing a plane ?
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Originally Posted by Kerosen
It is truly remarkable that we have such elaborate schemes for maintenance and the verification of our technical skills, but no system such as supervision to help us with the psychological challenges of our work and lives.
There was also a documentary about Aeroflot on telly in the 90s that showed similar. It seemed as rigourous as Western standards, just very frequent.
Whatever comes next, I hope it's not more knee jerking.
Before this thread gets morphed into one about wages or lack of - who is right?
We have Denti - a long term Pruner and purveyor of common sense saying the guy was on €68kpa and would not be expected to take a pay cut
or 2 guys who have 20 posts between them blaming this tragic incident on a pay cut.
If there are public sources available could someone provide a link then we can discuss cause and effect.
We have Denti - a long term Pruner and purveyor of common sense saying the guy was on €68kpa and would not be expected to take a pay cut
or 2 guys who have 20 posts between them blaming this tragic incident on a pay cut.
If there are public sources available could someone provide a link then we can discuss cause and effect.
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Worth noting that LH have thorough psycho testing before employment. I actually know someone who failed the test!
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There's a huge difference between psychometric testing and mental health assessments.
In various recurrent training sessions, I've heard all about stress and fatigue management. IMO, this is just lip service.
In various recurrent training sessions, I've heard all about stress and fatigue management. IMO, this is just lip service.
Mental illness
While I can only comment on my limited experience in three flag carriers.
My first paid three months full salary on sick leave then after a reduced income sacked you after a further three months.
Loss of license insurance paid only 10% of sum insured for mental problems.
These were the days when being labeled a "nutter" was one's fate.
I lost my license on mental health grounds in 1996. My company paid my salary for nearly two years before taking my medical away from me whereby I was transferred to an invalidity pension which was paid out of the (separate) pension fund.
It was in the companies financial interest to permanently remove my class 1 medical and the examining doctor was the company doctor.
In Hindsight it was possibly aerotoxic syndrome as we had a spate of pilots with similar mental health problems. If our illnesses had been classed as work related then the company would have been financially responsible.
Fortunately I only suffered severely from the Black Dog for seven years.....
Hopefully we will discover that it had nothing to do with mental illness as such but perhaps a seizure ...which has happened in flight to colleagues.
IMHO the security measures will have a sensible re hash but it's too late to redeem the flight engineer.
In the UK, hospital mental committal is only available to a male if he has seriously attempted suicide on three occasions. It is time to come out of the stone age.
My first paid three months full salary on sick leave then after a reduced income sacked you after a further three months.
Loss of license insurance paid only 10% of sum insured for mental problems.
These were the days when being labeled a "nutter" was one's fate.
I lost my license on mental health grounds in 1996. My company paid my salary for nearly two years before taking my medical away from me whereby I was transferred to an invalidity pension which was paid out of the (separate) pension fund.
It was in the companies financial interest to permanently remove my class 1 medical and the examining doctor was the company doctor.
In Hindsight it was possibly aerotoxic syndrome as we had a spate of pilots with similar mental health problems. If our illnesses had been classed as work related then the company would have been financially responsible.
Fortunately I only suffered severely from the Black Dog for seven years.....
Hopefully we will discover that it had nothing to do with mental illness as such but perhaps a seizure ...which has happened in flight to colleagues.
IMHO the security measures will have a sensible re hash but it's too late to redeem the flight engineer.
In the UK, hospital mental committal is only available to a male if he has seriously attempted suicide on three occasions. It is time to come out of the stone age.
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I see no motive or evidence here for the co-pilot taking the blame.
He would have had to proactively denied the Captain's access. If he was incapacitated, this thread would not exist.
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Whether it was a suicide or terrorist act, (or both) it surely was an intentional act.
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LH ceo just now at press conference answering question from journalist about policy of LH not having policy of cabin crew taking seat in flight deck when one goes on toilet break, explained that other partner airlines have no such policy as is LH policy, not sure how this is true as my previous airline this was mandatory (uk airline) not sure about other European airlines?
The breathing being audible on a hot mic seems impossible in a very noisy cockpit, unless of course it is insulated by the oxygen mask.
Early CVRs only had an open mike on the flight deck and I believe it was the British who pioneered the hot mike system.
So in conclusion it's quite possible to hear breathing from an individual crew position.
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If you really have a pilot that is focused on a suicide/mass murder plot, a two person flight deck rule doesn't seem like much of a hurdle. If you are planning to kill everyone anyway, why not just start off by bludgeoning/strangling/stabbing/slip a ruffie/etc. the pilot next to you and then the two person rule is bypassed. If the pilot looks to be too hard to handle, maybe the replacement FA would be easier.
It's too early to say, though. The point is, you're applying a rational thought processes to a situation isn't rational.
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Response to macdo (previous page)
Sorry - not true .... I did psychometric tests nearly 50 years ago before initial training and I have done at least 4 other series of tests since then.
Sorry - not true .... I did psychometric tests nearly 50 years ago before initial training and I have done at least 4 other series of tests since then.
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Natstrackalpha
No, I think there was somebody else on the flight deck who knew nothing about aeroplanes and flying and who thinks that to descend quickly you just push the stick forward.
No, I think there was somebody else on the flight deck who knew nothing about aeroplanes and flying and who thinks that to descend quickly you just push the stick forward.
Last edited by fastjet45; 26th Mar 2015 at 14:28.
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Yes, if he was incapacitated he would not have selected a lower attitude and he would not gone to the trouble of locking out the emergency entry code.
Whether it was a suicide or terrorist act, (or both) it surely was an intentional act.
Whether it was a suicide or terrorist act, (or both) it surely was an intentional act.
