Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France
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Co Pilot now named as Andreas Günter Lubitz.
Did Germanwings pilot deliberately lock his co-pilot out of cockpit? | Daily Mail Online
Did Germanwings pilot deliberately lock his co-pilot out of cockpit? | Daily Mail Online
French press conference going on right now...
Official now...
Captain was out of the cockpit and co-pilot starts a descent via autopilot.
Captain tries many times to call co-pilot by interphone and then by knocking on the door without any responses.
ATC calls aircraft without response. ATC even tries to tell pilot to select 7700 on transponder.
CVR picks up breathing from inside the cockpit, then loud banging on the door and then picks up EGWPS call out "TERRAIN, TERRAIN" and then initial impacts.
Captain was out of the cockpit and co-pilot starts a descent via autopilot.
Captain tries many times to call co-pilot by interphone and then by knocking on the door without any responses.
ATC calls aircraft without response. ATC even tries to tell pilot to select 7700 on transponder.
CVR picks up breathing from inside the cockpit, then loud banging on the door and then picks up EGWPS call out "TERRAIN, TERRAIN" and then initial impacts.
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Press conference BFMTV en Direct: regarder la chaine info en live - BFMTV
They have the last 30 minutes of the flight on the CVR.
Conversation between pilots was normal - "cheerful"
After about 20 minutes, captain runs through landing procedure.
Co-pilot's responses to this are described as "laconic"
The co-pilot was left alone in the cockpit.
Co-pilot heard operating FMS to select altitude - can only be a deliberate act.
Hear captain using the interphone to request access to cockpit.
No response.
Banged on door.
Sound of breathing inside cockpit (continues until the impact).
Marseille ATC calls heard - no response from co-pilot.
Press conference continues...
Question: what do you mean by "laconic"
Answer: the replies by the co-pilot were vey short, would have expected more of an exchange.
No real dialogue at this stage - in contrast to the "cheerful" exchanges earlier.
They have the last 30 minutes of the flight on the CVR.
Conversation between pilots was normal - "cheerful"
After about 20 minutes, captain runs through landing procedure.
Co-pilot's responses to this are described as "laconic"
The co-pilot was left alone in the cockpit.
Co-pilot heard operating FMS to select altitude - can only be a deliberate act.
Hear captain using the interphone to request access to cockpit.
No response.
Banged on door.
Sound of breathing inside cockpit (continues until the impact).
Marseille ATC calls heard - no response from co-pilot.
Press conference continues...
Question: what do you mean by "laconic"
Answer: the replies by the co-pilot were vey short, would have expected more of an exchange.
No real dialogue at this stage - in contrast to the "cheerful" exchanges earlier.
Last edited by DrGitfinger; 26th Mar 2015 at 12:02. Reason: Correction to translation + extra content
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Single pilot German copilot in control confirmed at live press conference, inclusive actioning descent voluntarily.
Captain requests access after returning from the toilet. No answer from PF.
Completely normal breathing is heard from cockpit till the end.
No comms with Marseille, nor reply to Squawk 7700 request. Other planes also fail to make contact.
Alarms are heard, followed by attempts heard to force the door.
Just before the final impact there is another bang possibly hitting a ridge.
No Mayday was ever sent out, nor was any response given to attempt at radio communications.
He had no reason to initiate the descent, no reason to refuse entry to the captain, no reason to refuse the comms.
What a sad day.
Captain requests access after returning from the toilet. No answer from PF.
Completely normal breathing is heard from cockpit till the end.
No comms with Marseille, nor reply to Squawk 7700 request. Other planes also fail to make contact.
Alarms are heard, followed by attempts heard to force the door.
Just before the final impact there is another bang possibly hitting a ridge.
No Mayday was ever sent out, nor was any response given to attempt at radio communications.
He had no reason to initiate the descent, no reason to refuse entry to the captain, no reason to refuse the comms.
What a sad day.
Of the many issues arising here, as a frequently paying passenger, I find that the idea that one of the two pilots on board may be viewed (by his own captain) as being incapable of being left on his own by virtue of his inexperience and inability to be profoundly shocking.
That a sane Captain could profess to preferring to soil himself than to leave an inexperienced first officer alone at the controls is mind-boggling.
With a two-pilot cockpit, surely pax have the right to expect that in the event of a pilot incapacitation, the remaining pilot (whether captain or F/O) will be fully and entirely qualified and capable of safely and competently completing the flight, regardless of weather conditions, and indeed that he would be capable of dealing with any emergency or hazard.
If that is not the case, then surely we have to reintroduce a three pilot cockpit at least every time there is a 'second dickie' with less than a particular level of experience/skill/capability?
And perhaps junior, inexperienced first officers should also only fly within a constituted crew, in which two more experienced pilots would get to know him or her better, and be able to start to form an impression of both skills and psyche?
As an aside, if members feel that postings by non pilots get in the way, or are not worth reading, then perhaps one solution would be for posts by vetted members who can prove themselves to be qualified to whatever level were deemed appropriate to automatically appear in bold, with a particular background colour, to allow the less patient to skim through what they might view as dross, and read only the posts by professional pilots.
That a sane Captain could profess to preferring to soil himself than to leave an inexperienced first officer alone at the controls is mind-boggling.
With a two-pilot cockpit, surely pax have the right to expect that in the event of a pilot incapacitation, the remaining pilot (whether captain or F/O) will be fully and entirely qualified and capable of safely and competently completing the flight, regardless of weather conditions, and indeed that he would be capable of dealing with any emergency or hazard.
If that is not the case, then surely we have to reintroduce a three pilot cockpit at least every time there is a 'second dickie' with less than a particular level of experience/skill/capability?
And perhaps junior, inexperienced first officers should also only fly within a constituted crew, in which two more experienced pilots would get to know him or her better, and be able to start to form an impression of both skills and psyche?
As an aside, if members feel that postings by non pilots get in the way, or are not worth reading, then perhaps one solution would be for posts by vetted members who can prove themselves to be qualified to whatever level were deemed appropriate to automatically appear in bold, with a particular background colour, to allow the less patient to skim through what they might view as dross, and read only the posts by professional pilots.
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Why can't the cockpit door policy be reviewed? How many hi-jacks has it really saved? It seems a classic case of 'create a solution to solve one problem and create another problem in the process.' The second problem may be worse than the first...
What about a finger print or retina recognition key if the door must stay?
What about a finger print or retina recognition key if the door must stay?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Ancient Geek
There is a simple modification which would alleviate the lockout problem.
The LOCK function should only be enabled when both seats are occupied.
This seems to be a good balance between the terrorist risk and the pilot lockout risk.
Sorry, how would you manage this scenario.
PNF goes to toilet. About to open door passenger attempts to enter cockpit as well.
Originally Posted by The Ancient Geek
There is a simple modification which would alleviate the lockout problem.
The LOCK function should only be enabled when both seats are occupied.
This seems to be a good balance between the terrorist risk and the pilot lockout risk.
Sorry, how would you manage this scenario.
PNF goes to toilet. About to open door passenger attempts to enter cockpit as well.
Sadly suicides tend to chose a copycat method and we would appear to be suffering from a spate of these incidents. There are no totally foolproof answers, we need to take a considered and balanced action to alleviate a new risk which is an unintended consequence of the successful locked door policy.
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I entirely disagree, the experience of the First Officer seems 100% relevant. Unfortunately it has not made business sense to fail cadets.
Live press conference by French Official now...
Cockpit voice recorder info .... Captain left cockpit. Co Pilot initiated descent by keying attitude selector. Captain called at door, knocked, no response from Co-Pilot. Then noise of human breathing heard... All the way to impact. ATC calls heard several times, no response
Ground proximity alarms heard. Sounds of violent attempts to force door. Just before final impact... Screams and possibly very first noise of impact is heard. Then silence.
Dialogue in cockpit beforehand was entirely normal.
Official is adamant that the descent was a deliberate action by co-pilot.
Questioned about ethnicity of co-pilot. Ans - German, no suspicion of terrorism.
Edit: I'm curious to know how they can be sure he had keyed the altitude command, when they only have CVR ?
Cockpit voice recorder info .... Captain left cockpit. Co Pilot initiated descent by keying attitude selector. Captain called at door, knocked, no response from Co-Pilot. Then noise of human breathing heard... All the way to impact. ATC calls heard several times, no response
Ground proximity alarms heard. Sounds of violent attempts to force door. Just before final impact... Screams and possibly very first noise of impact is heard. Then silence.
Dialogue in cockpit beforehand was entirely normal.
Official is adamant that the descent was a deliberate action by co-pilot.
Questioned about ethnicity of co-pilot. Ans - German, no suspicion of terrorism.
Edit: I'm curious to know how they can be sure he had keyed the altitude command, when they only have CVR ?
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Emergency code - door
I have flown the A320 in a low cost company in Europe and what struck me during the training is how only few experienced pilot on A320 did know the emergency door access. We tend to remember only the normal code.
If the pilot being outside knew the emergency access code, he should have been able to enter, doesn't he ...
If the pilot being outside knew the emergency access code, he should have been able to enter, doesn't he ...
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The Press, the thread, and Annex 1
A few (succinct) inputs:
1. If the quality of discussion on the forum has declined over the past several years as more posters have shown up lacking any piloting credentials whatsoever, part of the reason for the decline also is, over the same time period, a greater number of individuals have found that posting on internet message boards at all is an interesting and - sometimes - useful thing to do. I can't prove this correlation between SLFs-with-agendas and increased propensities to type on keyboards wired together, but it is true in many other sectors (the rise of internet-based "learning platforms" in higher ed, for example, over approximately the same time period).
2. BEA is part of the system France, as a sovereign State, applies to civil aviation and accident investigations - and the French system includes a much more dominant criminal and prosecutorial element than in the U.S. or U.K. or most all other States. NOT saying this is better, worse, or any thing of the sort - just that the criminal-system element changes the willingness of authorities to disclose to the press, media, public.
3. Talk of imposing tighter and/or more extensive mental health evaluations on flightcrew members - great, please give me the roadmap for how the SARPs would be formulated so as to apply across the many different cultures, traditions, even societal conceptualizations of what is "mental health" in the first place. Annex 1 of the Chicago Convention would authorize ICAO to reform airman licensing so as to include a greater component of mental health screening - but a high degree of skepticism is needed that this could be accomplished in a manner which encompasses the many different social attitudes of the many divergent States which are State Parties to the Convention on International Civil Aviation (the Chicago Convention of 1944).
1. If the quality of discussion on the forum has declined over the past several years as more posters have shown up lacking any piloting credentials whatsoever, part of the reason for the decline also is, over the same time period, a greater number of individuals have found that posting on internet message boards at all is an interesting and - sometimes - useful thing to do. I can't prove this correlation between SLFs-with-agendas and increased propensities to type on keyboards wired together, but it is true in many other sectors (the rise of internet-based "learning platforms" in higher ed, for example, over approximately the same time period).
2. BEA is part of the system France, as a sovereign State, applies to civil aviation and accident investigations - and the French system includes a much more dominant criminal and prosecutorial element than in the U.S. or U.K. or most all other States. NOT saying this is better, worse, or any thing of the sort - just that the criminal-system element changes the willingness of authorities to disclose to the press, media, public.
3. Talk of imposing tighter and/or more extensive mental health evaluations on flightcrew members - great, please give me the roadmap for how the SARPs would be formulated so as to apply across the many different cultures, traditions, even societal conceptualizations of what is "mental health" in the first place. Annex 1 of the Chicago Convention would authorize ICAO to reform airman licensing so as to include a greater component of mental health screening - but a high degree of skepticism is needed that this could be accomplished in a manner which encompasses the many different social attitudes of the many divergent States which are State Parties to the Convention on International Civil Aviation (the Chicago Convention of 1944).
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Procuror talking
Procuror 1230
2nd black box not located
30 min entirely recorded
20 minutes normal courteous
cdb is heared doing briefing landing DUS and answers very short (laconic)
we hear captain ask f/o to takes control
seat going back and door closing
natural need
f/o alone
fms manoeuvred to command descent of the aircraft
voluntary action
lot of call by the captain to open the door with public address no answer
knocks on the door no reply
human respiration can be heard until the end of flight so pilot alive
Marseille control calls repeatidly no reply
atc controller asks for 7700 no reply
atc ask other pilots to radio relayed to ctc MRS no reply
alarms ground proximity
loud bang like to smash the door
pull up pull up
before impact first noise on a talus before hitting mountain
no mayday mayday
our interpretation and plausible :
F/Oi voluntarily refused to open the door to captain
and action the button to order the lost of altitude. Reason unknown but can be analysed as to destroy the aircraft
Andreas Lubitz is the name
2nd black box not located
30 min entirely recorded
20 minutes normal courteous
cdb is heared doing briefing landing DUS and answers very short (laconic)
we hear captain ask f/o to takes control
seat going back and door closing
natural need
f/o alone
fms manoeuvred to command descent of the aircraft
voluntary action
lot of call by the captain to open the door with public address no answer
knocks on the door no reply
human respiration can be heard until the end of flight so pilot alive
Marseille control calls repeatidly no reply
atc controller asks for 7700 no reply
atc ask other pilots to radio relayed to ctc MRS no reply
alarms ground proximity
loud bang like to smash the door
pull up pull up
before impact first noise on a talus before hitting mountain
no mayday mayday
our interpretation and plausible :
F/Oi voluntarily refused to open the door to captain
and action the button to order the lost of altitude. Reason unknown but can be analysed as to destroy the aircraft
Andreas Lubitz is the name
Last edited by Squawk_ident; 26th Mar 2015 at 12:04. Reason: Name of f/o given
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Sorry, how would you manage this scenario.
PNF goes to toilet. About to
open door passenger attempts to enter cockpit as well.
PNF goes to toilet. About to
open door passenger attempts to enter cockpit as well.
I hardly see how it's different to how it works now anyway. If someone REALLY wants to get in when the pilot needs a toilet break, they can. Again, it's all probability of risk. The only way to circumvent it altogether is to put a toilet in a cockpit?
But in response to the post you were replying to, The 2 pilot in seat idea wouldn't work and it's just something else to go wrong and overly complicated. Why?
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Enoon:
Incidentally and on another point, my heart goes out to the engineers who maintain the aircraft. Every time something happens the morons in the media note that the aircraft recently had some fault corrected, and explicitly or implicity, begin to point their uninformed fingers of blame. I am sure that the maintenance crews are already racking their brains and searching their consciences and such accusations must be very distressing for them.
An ex Air Force acquaintance of mine worked in later life at a facility overhauling helicopter gearboxes for numerous operators. Whenever a helicopter crashed his demeanor changed and he genuinely become very anxious and fearful that the crash might have been caused by an act or omission of his while performing a gearbox overhaul. His stress and anxiety eventually reached a level where he left the industry.
So I feel the maintainers out there and understand what thoughts they must be having when one of the aircraft they service everyday has a tragic accident.
Incidentally and on another point, my heart goes out to the engineers who maintain the aircraft. Every time something happens the morons in the media note that the aircraft recently had some fault corrected, and explicitly or implicity, begin to point their uninformed fingers of blame. I am sure that the maintenance crews are already racking their brains and searching their consciences and such accusations must be very distressing for them.
An ex Air Force acquaintance of mine worked in later life at a facility overhauling helicopter gearboxes for numerous operators. Whenever a helicopter crashed his demeanor changed and he genuinely become very anxious and fearful that the crash might have been caused by an act or omission of his while performing a gearbox overhaul. His stress and anxiety eventually reached a level where he left the industry.
So I feel the maintainers out there and understand what thoughts they must be having when one of the aircraft they service everyday has a tragic accident.
