Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France
Mental health and the workplace is a big issue, whilst we need to rehabilitate those (including myself) who have had problems, equally we need to ensure that the risk to others is mitigated. - But then the condition gets hidden, because of associated stigma and job impact. I came clean, and suffered accordingly, in fact it flat-lined my career for 10 years, you could argue it ended it, given that I'm now now mid 50's
Equally, during treatment, the urge to end it was overwhelmingly strong. I didn't conceive it as a selfish notion, it simply seemed like the right answer. - I used to visit a support forum, and took a break whilst overseas for about 2 weeks. Upon visiting it again, I found that everyone was wondering where I was, and saying hope you're ok. Confused I read back through the posts and uncovered a man I didn't even know writing stuff I couldn't comprehend. That was me, and that's mental health for you.
How do you screen for that.
Equally, during treatment, the urge to end it was overwhelmingly strong. I didn't conceive it as a selfish notion, it simply seemed like the right answer. - I used to visit a support forum, and took a break whilst overseas for about 2 weeks. Upon visiting it again, I found that everyone was wondering where I was, and saying hope you're ok. Confused I read back through the posts and uncovered a man I didn't even know writing stuff I couldn't comprehend. That was me, and that's mental health for you.
How do you screen for that.
MrSnuggles, you state:-
I think you're trying to say it could have been an alternative cause, but if that is the case, how come we are discussing his previous Depressive episodes and his sick note they've found stating he wasn't fit to fly that actual day? Are you saying that the depression and mental illness shouldnt be considered? It may have been harder to work out if he hadnt had any mental episodes surely?
Until we know more, please give the FO the benefit of a doubt.
Based on facts from Mr BEA and a prosecutor we know that
- FO changed his demeanor towards Capt during landing brief.
- Capt left the cockpit for some reason after that.
- Cockpit door was locked from inside.
- Breathing sounds are heard in the cockpit but no attempt to comms with ATC and no reactions/improper reactions to the immediate surroundings.
This could all be indicative of so called subtle incapacitation. It may have started with the change in attitude during the briefing. If Capt didn't notice this and went to the loo instead, it could have gotten worse until FO was unconcious or incapable of coherent thoughts - a hypoxia like state of mind.
Such things has happened before. Hypoxic pilots knows to descend if they recognise hypoxia. If there are other problems not related to hypoxia this won't help. Brain aneurysm? Heart infection (TWAR)? Blood clot/deep vein thrombosis?
Subtle incapacitation was one of the reasonings behind the Staines crash.
Based on facts from Mr BEA and a prosecutor we know that
- FO changed his demeanor towards Capt during landing brief.
- Capt left the cockpit for some reason after that.
- Cockpit door was locked from inside.
- Breathing sounds are heard in the cockpit but no attempt to comms with ATC and no reactions/improper reactions to the immediate surroundings.
This could all be indicative of so called subtle incapacitation. It may have started with the change in attitude during the briefing. If Capt didn't notice this and went to the loo instead, it could have gotten worse until FO was unconcious or incapable of coherent thoughts - a hypoxia like state of mind.
Such things has happened before. Hypoxic pilots knows to descend if they recognise hypoxia. If there are other problems not related to hypoxia this won't help. Brain aneurysm? Heart infection (TWAR)? Blood clot/deep vein thrombosis?
Subtle incapacitation was one of the reasonings behind the Staines crash.
4468,
What would you call someone who tent-pegs the jet and murders 150 people?
IMHO, if they had prior knowledge of his condition, German Wings is in deep doo doo over this one.
Basil
So you think someone suffering from depression is "a nutter"?
So you think someone suffering from depression is "a nutter"?
IMHO, if they had prior knowledge of his condition, German Wings is in deep doo doo over this one.
Last edited by Basil; 27th Mar 2015 at 13:25. Reason: added prior knowledge condition
The Original Whirly
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Apparently he hid current depression and sick notes from his employers. Recently posted on BBC website. Germanwings crash: Co-pilot Lubitz 'hid illness' - BBC News
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GW company culture
Can any serving member of GW crew provide an insight into the relationship between management and crews. Is there a gulf between the two or are management seen as competent, approachable and fair? A good manager knows the workforce as individuals, knows their strengths and weaknesses and would be trusted with personal disclosures into their state of mind. Would GW management have been receptive to observations from AGL's collegues and positively disposed to follow them up appropriately?
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Mirage seem to be based both just 60 miles to the west of 4U9525 final track (Base Aérienne 115) with main runway direction perpendicular to track, and even closer than that on the coast only 30nm west of track (Base Aérienne 125), where they also have a helicopter squadron which I offer may have included some of the machines seen at the crash site. BA125 seems to be a substantial test facility employing possibly 5,000 personnel. It also seems to have an important nuclear defense role. Parts of both bases are pixelated in Google Earth.
The Independent newspaper/website reported early on that the final descent took 18 minutes not 8, and that Mirage caught up with the A320. Did anyone ever get to the bottom of what that story was about ? Was it retracted or comprehensively debunked ? It is still out there.
I am afraid I am as yet unwilling to buy the conclusive (sic) troubled FO story so prematurely offered by the authorities.
The Independent newspaper/website reported early on that the final descent took 18 minutes not 8, and that Mirage caught up with the A320. Did anyone ever get to the bottom of what that story was about ? Was it retracted or comprehensively debunked ? It is still out there.
I am afraid I am as yet unwilling to buy the conclusive (sic) troubled FO story so prematurely offered by the authorities.
Last edited by slip and turn; 27th Mar 2015 at 12:33. Reason: sic
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"How do you screen for that"
Is strikes me amongst all the emotion a singular cognitive dissonance.
This guy applied for the job.
He knew the conditions and chose them.
This day, this week he knew he was not allowed to work, deceived his employers and flew to Spain, pretending to treat it like any other day
There is a certain remorseless logic to all this.
It started with a criminal act on the ground that morning, (what is deception of your employers and wilful misconduct in a position of extreme responsibility if not that?), then finished with a criminal act on the ground that afternoon.
I feel as sorry for the Gendarmerie de Montagne, who have to pick out the gruesome decaying fragments of skin and bone day after day without throwing up.
What did they do, to chose that line of work, which someone at 10 000m had chosen for them?
Is strikes me amongst all the emotion a singular cognitive dissonance.
This guy applied for the job.
He knew the conditions and chose them.
This day, this week he knew he was not allowed to work, deceived his employers and flew to Spain, pretending to treat it like any other day
There is a certain remorseless logic to all this.
It started with a criminal act on the ground that morning, (what is deception of your employers and wilful misconduct in a position of extreme responsibility if not that?), then finished with a criminal act on the ground that afternoon.
I feel as sorry for the Gendarmerie de Montagne, who have to pick out the gruesome decaying fragments of skin and bone day after day without throwing up.
What did they do, to chose that line of work, which someone at 10 000m had chosen for them?
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. If it is one staff member unexpectedly losing a private battle with the black dog at 38K feet then I can't see how they are responsible...
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confirmed,
state prosecutor says:
http://www.sta-duesseldorf.nrw.de/be...lugabsturz.pdf
it basically says he was sick at the very day of the flight, but hid this fact from his employer and others.
state prosecutor says:
http://www.sta-duesseldorf.nrw.de/be...lugabsturz.pdf
it basically says he was sick at the very day of the flight, but hid this fact from his employer and others.
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There is so much speculation being repeated as fact. Many of the conclusions that have been drawn are likely scenarios, but are not by any means certain.
There is no direct evidence that the "captain" was locked out or that the key code was used twice.
There is no direct evidence that it was the captain that was trying to enter the cockpit, or if he was alone, or under duress.
The ES data may have been spoofed; it comes from an unofficial source.
No doubt the official statements strongly suggest that the F/O brought down the aircraft, but there are some loose ends that need to be tied up before this conclusion can be relied on.
There is no direct evidence that the "captain" was locked out or that the key code was used twice.
There is no direct evidence that it was the captain that was trying to enter the cockpit, or if he was alone, or under duress.
The ES data may have been spoofed; it comes from an unofficial source.
No doubt the official statements strongly suggest that the F/O brought down the aircraft, but there are some loose ends that need to be tied up before this conclusion can be relied on.
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Status
I flew to Brussels and back yesterday and it occurred to me that I was now viewing the pilots as a possible threat for the first time.
So my thought process in the last 20 odd years has gone from:
How this will affect pilots in general (and their mental health) if public opinion turns from admiration to suspicion within a generation? Status is extremely important to many people, hopefully this won't result in any repeats.
So my thought process in the last 20 odd years has gone from:
- Admiration and considering trying to become a commercial pilot (got PPL etc).
- 9/11 happened and the job market was affected along with T&Cs eroded and working conditions negatively affected - I felt sympathy for pilots and glad that I didn't become one.
- Some suspicion.
How this will affect pilots in general (and their mental health) if public opinion turns from admiration to suspicion within a generation? Status is extremely important to many people, hopefully this won't result in any repeats.
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Ok - there is some new information that would explain a sound motiv behind the Co Pilots actions:
A search of the said First Officers appartment revealed a medical doctors statement, that he is medically unfit to go to work and that he would be so for a longer period of time. He decided to keep this to himself and not inform his employer, as it would be evident, that they would suspend him from flight duties indefinately. This confrontation was devastating for him, being an enthusiastic Aviator from a very early age and he felt his life ruined. Instead of staying home, as the doctor prescribed, he decided to fatefully go flying in this state of mind...
A search of the said First Officers appartment revealed a medical doctors statement, that he is medically unfit to go to work and that he would be so for a longer period of time. He decided to keep this to himself and not inform his employer, as it would be evident, that they would suspend him from flight duties indefinately. This confrontation was devastating for him, being an enthusiastic Aviator from a very early age and he felt his life ruined. Instead of staying home, as the doctor prescribed, he decided to fatefully go flying in this state of mind...
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There is also much fact being repeated as fact.
For those that are willing to listen.
The state of this man's mental health worries me, that he was still able to fly. And to kill.
The innocent travelling public need better protection.
imho.
For those that are willing to listen.
The state of this man's mental health worries me, that he was still able to fly. And to kill.
The innocent travelling public need better protection.
imho.
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Counseling and support
Re pilots not feeling comfortable with opening up about personal issues for fear of losing their job, for many years BALPA had nominated members who you could call to talk things through and get advice. Am not sure whether this still exists but I always thought it was a good idea.
Maybe a sort of Samaritan service for crew would be a way forward to help pilots resolve these sorts of issues. The worst thing in the world is grappling with an issue and feeling that you can't talk to anyone about it.
Maybe a sort of Samaritan service for crew would be a way forward to help pilots resolve these sorts of issues. The worst thing in the world is grappling with an issue and feeling that you can't talk to anyone about it.
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Regarding the issue of torn-up sick notes, perhaps it is now time for compulsory reporting of these medical issues where people are unfit for work, especially in such critical professions as this?
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I have a beautiful daughter aged 28, diagnosed bipolar; just returned home after three weeks in hospital after her third suicide attempt. Desperately trying her best to conquer the demons of her mind. It's an awful illness, yet to wait for a discovery of cure.
Last edited by HotDog; 27th Mar 2015 at 13:17.