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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

Old 27th Mar 2015, 13:14
  #1901 (permalink)  

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Apparently he hid current depression and sick notes from his employers. Recently posted on BBC website. Germanwings crash: Co-pilot Lubitz 'hid illness' - BBC News
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 13:16
  #1902 (permalink)  
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GW company culture

Can any serving member of GW crew provide an insight into the relationship between management and crews. Is there a gulf between the two or are management seen as competent, approachable and fair? A good manager knows the workforce as individuals, knows their strengths and weaknesses and would be trusted with personal disclosures into their state of mind. Would GW management have been receptive to observations from AGL's collegues and positively disposed to follow them up appropriately?
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 13:16
  #1903 (permalink)  
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Mirage seem to be based both just 60 miles to the west of 4U9525 final track (Base Aérienne 115) with main runway direction perpendicular to track, and even closer than that on the coast only 30nm west of track (Base Aérienne 125), where they also have a helicopter squadron which I offer may have included some of the machines seen at the crash site. BA125 seems to be a substantial test facility employing possibly 5,000 personnel. It also seems to have an important nuclear defense role. Parts of both bases are pixelated in Google Earth.

The Independent newspaper/website reported early on that the final descent took 18 minutes not 8, and that Mirage caught up with the A320. Did anyone ever get to the bottom of what that story was about ? Was it retracted or comprehensively debunked ? It is still out there.

I am afraid I am as yet unwilling to buy the conclusive (sic) troubled FO story so prematurely offered by the authorities.

Last edited by slip and turn; 27th Mar 2015 at 13:33. Reason: sic
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 13:19
  #1904 (permalink)  
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"How do you screen for that"

Is strikes me amongst all the emotion a singular cognitive dissonance.

This guy applied for the job.
He knew the conditions and chose them.

This day, this week he knew he was not allowed to work, deceived his employers and flew to Spain, pretending to treat it like any other day

There is a certain remorseless logic to all this.
It started with a criminal act on the ground that morning, (what is deception of your employers and wilful misconduct in a position of extreme responsibility if not that?), then finished with a criminal act on the ground that afternoon.

I feel as sorry for the Gendarmerie de Montagne, who have to pick out the gruesome decaying fragments of skin and bone day after day without throwing up.
What did they do, to chose that line of work, which someone at 10 000m had chosen for them?
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 13:19
  #1905 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Basil View Post
What would you call someone who tent-pegs the jet and murders 150 people?
IMHO German Wings is in deep doo doo over this one.
Only if somebody at German Wings marked this guy's card over his previous bout of depression, prompting him to try to conceal it this time and try to work on through it. if they put him under pressure in ways that led him to fly on when he knew he shouldn't have then they are indeed in the . If it is one staff member unexpectedly losing a private battle with the black dog at 38K feet then I can't see how they are responsible...
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 13:21
  #1906 (permalink)  
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RT quotes: Prosecutors said Lubitz did not have political or religious motives for deliberately crashing the plane
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 13:21
  #1907 (permalink)  
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state prosecutor says:

it basically says he was sick at the very day of the flight, but hid this fact from his employer and others.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 13:23
  #1908 (permalink)  
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There is so much speculation being repeated as fact. Many of the conclusions that have been drawn are likely scenarios, but are not by any means certain.

There is no direct evidence that the "captain" was locked out or that the key code was used twice.

There is no direct evidence that it was the captain that was trying to enter the cockpit, or if he was alone, or under duress.

The ES data may have been spoofed; it comes from an unofficial source.

No doubt the official statements strongly suggest that the F/O brought down the aircraft, but there are some loose ends that need to be tied up before this conclusion can be relied on.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 13:23
  #1909 (permalink)  
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I flew to Brussels and back yesterday and it occurred to me that I was now viewing the pilots as a possible threat for the first time.

So my thought process in the last 20 odd years has gone from:
  1. Admiration and considering trying to become a commercial pilot (got PPL etc).
  2. 9/11 happened and the job market was affected along with T&Cs eroded and working conditions negatively affected - I felt sympathy for pilots and glad that I didn't become one.
  3. Some suspicion.

How this will affect pilots in general (and their mental health) if public opinion turns from admiration to suspicion within a generation? Status is extremely important to many people, hopefully this won't result in any repeats.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 13:24
  #1910 (permalink)  
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What happened to the FDR? Did they find it already?
Aren't they looking for it anymore? Is a "noise of normal breathing" in the CVR enough to get all conclusions?
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 13:25
  #1911 (permalink)  
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Ok - there is some new information that would explain a sound motiv behind the Co Pilots actions:

A search of the said First Officers appartment revealed a medical doctors statement, that he is medically unfit to go to work and that he would be so for a longer period of time. He decided to keep this to himself and not inform his employer, as it would be evident, that they would suspend him from flight duties indefinately. This confrontation was devastating for him, being an enthusiastic Aviator from a very early age and he felt his life ruined. Instead of staying home, as the doctor prescribed, he decided to fatefully go flying in this state of mind...
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 13:26
  #1912 (permalink)  
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There is also much fact being repeated as fact.
For those that are willing to listen.
The state of this man's mental health worries me, that he was still able to fly. And to kill.
The innocent travelling public need better protection.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 13:27
  #1913 (permalink)  
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Counseling and support

Originally Posted by fireflybob View Post
Re pilots not feeling comfortable with opening up about personal issues for fear of losing their job, for many years BALPA had nominated members who you could call to talk things through and get advice. Am not sure whether this still exists but I always thought it was a good idea.

Maybe a sort of Samaritan service for crew would be a way forward to help pilots resolve these sorts of issues. The worst thing in the world is grappling with an issue and feeling that you can't talk to anyone about it.
We have this kind of system in my profession of Medicine. On a state wide basis such formal networks exist, staffed by such Samaritans that you mentioned. They are peers who volunteer for this on a part time basis. Anonymity and discretion are guaranteed. Unfortunately such networks cost money to administer and I am doubtful that any entity in Aviation (FAA, airlines, unions) would be eager to pay for it.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 13:29
  #1914 (permalink)  
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There is no direct evidence that it was the captain that was trying to enter the cockpit
Really ?Are you sure ?
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 13:30
  #1915 (permalink)  
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Regarding the issue of torn-up sick notes, perhaps it is now time for compulsory reporting of these medical issues where people are unfit for work, especially in such critical professions as this?
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 13:30
  #1916 (permalink)  
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I have a beautiful daughter aged 28, diagnosed bipolar; just returned home after three weeks in hospital after her third suicide attempt. Desperately trying her best to conquer the demons of her mind. It's an awful illness, yet to wait for a discovery of cure.

Last edited by HotDog; 27th Mar 2015 at 14:17.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 13:32
  #1917 (permalink)  
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Latest news just about wraps it all up.

Now all that remains to be seen is the nature of the knee jerk reactions, and how quickly EASA will shut the gate now that the horse has bolted!
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 13:32
  #1918 (permalink)  
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How this will affect pilots in general (and their mental health) if public opinion turns from admiration to suspicion within a generation? Status is extremely important to many people, hopefully this won't result in any repeats.
As a passenger, my suggestion would be that you hold yourself in check and think about how many thousands of flights happen each day without a hitch. Just because 1 FO apparently has decided to deceive and destroy should not mean we now look at all pilots with suspicion. I booked my next flight yesterday and had not a second thought about doing so and will not have a single doubt in my mind when I board the plane that the pilot is anything but competent and professional.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 13:37
  #1919 (permalink)  
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QDMQDMQDM, thanks for you post. I had to work with a psychotic chap for some years. Exactly what you say and for me it looks like it may be very relevant here. Depression itself is not really the issue here, it is the psychotic side of human nature.

What I remember from Germany: there is a bit lack of understanding of mental illness, or psychiatric injuries, or psychotic behavior. Its all put in just one big bowl by the psychiatrists and they probably just prescribe drugs: fatal if you get the wrong stuff! Makes some mentally ill people really crazy and a lot worse - they change from depressive to psychotic because of the wrong drug. Then the psychologists only see the family background and childhood and they have no idea of endocrine disorders. Even worse, in Germany all needs to be absolutely perfect. The cars , the houses, the streets and of course your profession and career. That must be big pressure on people with understandable little problems. With that pressure the problems get bigger. Some people just have a psychotic predisposition, it depends on the stress and pressure from the outside if this time bomb is triggered at some stage in their life - usually between the age of 15 and 35. Often this predisposition never comes out and never will be discovered. This week it looks like the hole World became aware of one persons very tragic mental rush hour.

Let's hope all friends and relatives of the victims, including the co-pilot family, all witnesses and rescue staff on site, get the help they need in the next days, months and years to come.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 13:40
  #1920 (permalink)  
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Mental Illness

Depression is a mental illness. This should have put a big question mark over his suitability to fly a commercial or any other type of aeroplane. It would seem to me that Lufthansa/German Wings are culpable. They knew he had been ill and yet allowed him to take charge of a Commercial Aircraft and the lives of 150 people.
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