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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

Old 27th Mar 2015, 11:21
  #1881 (permalink)  
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From BBC on-line:

When Mr Lubitz finished training in 2009, he was diagnosed with a serious depressive episode and went on to receive treatment for a year and a half, the German news site Bild reports.
Internal documents quoted by Bild and German broadcaster ARD say a note on Mr Lubitz's aviation authority file recommended regular psychological assessment.
I would just add that Germany has rather strict privacy laws and release of this information is ilegal
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 11:23
  #1882 (permalink)  
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I would just add that Germany has rather strict privacy laws and release of this information is ilegal
I would just say that this should have prevented him from obtaining a flying licence.

Last edited by No_Speed_Restriction; 27th Mar 2015 at 11:25. Reason: none
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 11:26
  #1883 (permalink)  
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I find it troubling that so many self-professed "professionals" on here are tiptoeing around the F/O's documented history of mental illness and a system that allows such a person with that history person to hold a medical certificate of a class sufficient for a commercial pilot certificate to remain valid. Sorry (not) if that sounds "discriminatory" but in aviation, particularly for those involved in commercial/common carriage of passengers with no say who occupies the front seats, our whole careers are discriminatory in terms of performance and health standards that must be met.

But it seems some would rather co-opt this event as a vehicle to bray about their pet aviation peeves like pay, their opinions on what they view as "senseless rules" etc or further conspiracy theories. More incredibly, some view this as a fraternal issue in spite of the fact we know the altitude preselect was purposely set lower, that A/P entries must be made in order to begin a descent, and disabling the door entry keypad from inside the cockpit takes a deliberate act that requires operating a guarded switch.

If these things were done, I want no fraternal association with that person, mentally ill or not, who betrayed that trust and perpetrated this horrible event. 150 innocent people died folks, the secondary issues and "woe is me I'm an underpaid pilot" are irrelevant and somewhat disgusting.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 11:27
  #1884 (permalink)  
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If no chime why the descent?.Pilots do not just descend, they ask ATC for clearance. This was not done. No declaration of emergency either.
100ft approx was set on Altitude selector. Then descent was started.
ATC tried to contact ac with no reply. FO was breathing.
Captain outside heard trying to get in.
FO locked door.
No indication from AC that anything was wrong.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 11:30
  #1885 (permalink)  
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So why are the French authorities so confident that it was the FO who remained on the flight deck and how can they be so confident that the aircraft was deliberately flown into the ground?

because there is also the enhanced mode s radar data that gives the selected altitude - changed from 38000ft to 96ft, which they can correlate with a switch change noise, and also they know which seat moved - from the voice recorder
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 11:33
  #1886 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by QDMQDMQDM
If the copilot did indeed deliberately fly the aircraft into the Alps, as seems very likely, then that is at first sight completely baffling. If you just want to commit suicide, why on Earth would you want to take 150 innocent people with you? It's just not rational. And that's the thing -- this act was not rational, so therefore we have to look at what could plausibly make someone act in such an irrational manner.
Given the story that is apparently developing concerning who he actually was, maybe the question should be "Why stop at 149 innocent people?"
Certainly those developments seems to answer the question as the states of being rational or irrational.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 11:33
  #1887 (permalink)  
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The last conversation on the CVR is the capt telling the FO he's taking a break and officially declaring the FO to be in charge.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 11:34
  #1888 (permalink)  
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Seniortarget - agreed but it is a question of probabilities.

It is highly likely (though not certain) that this guy committed an act that is a possible (though highly improbable) act on any flight we might take.

Personally I think the risk of a pilot suicide/ pilot terrorist or whatever we call it while a possibility is despite this incident is still very low indeed.

If we try and introduce procedures for every possible risk however low then we will get to the point where inconvenience is overwhelming.

When I fly I am thousands of times more likely to be killed by the mistake of a well intention ed and concientious professional pilot than I am by a mad man. But I still fly because the risk is so small. Way smaller than the risk of the journey to the airport for example.

I know 2 on the flight deck can help mitigate this risk I am not sure that i personally would bother.

Obviously not my decision though - just a personal view
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 11:34
  #1889 (permalink)  
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QDMQDMQDM, thank you for your post. Some knowledge in this sea of speculation.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 11:39
  #1890 (permalink)  
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I would just say that this should have prevented him from obtaining a flying licence.
This sentence shows nothing but non-familiarity with german authorities. Some friends from Germany would even suspect that certain german authorities related to aviation overall show heavy signs of delusional mind, but they are not relieved from duty. Let us wait for the facts and hope authorities are not running amok against GA too.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 11:40
  #1891 (permalink)  
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There is no way of knowing which pilot selected the altitude or the descent mode*, unless they took manual control^, which is unlikely.

* There is just one knob to do this, (well, two if you include V/S), but both pilots use the same control(s) depending who is PF.

^ Then we could see which sidestick was moved.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 11:45
  #1892 (permalink)  
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Co-pilot was ill at time of incident

Reports that co-pilot had a sick note that meant he should have stayed home that day. Torn sick note found in Düsseldorf home.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 11:49
  #1893 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Uplinker View Post
There is no way of knowing which pilot selected the altitude or the descent mode*, unless they took manual control^, which is unlikely.

* There is just one knob to do this, (well, two if you include V/S), but both pilots use the same control(s) depending who is PF.

^ Then we could see which sidestick was moved.
I wouldn't expect the sidestick to be used if you dial in a lower altitude. It is irrelevant anyway because the CVR confirms who was left alone in the Flight Deck.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 11:49
  #1894 (permalink)  
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The 'depressive episode / burnout' seems to have come very early in the co-pilot's career. I know that breakdown is not uncommon among new university students, who feel under intense pressure and are away from family support for the first time. Is this also a common feature among cadet pilots?
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 11:55
  #1895 (permalink)  
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German news outlet (Ard) reporting that according to German investigators, a sick note has been found that had been issued to cover the day that he flew the plane. They are saying he hid his illness from his employer. This is breaking news - probably not widely reported yet. Source is the ARD, reporting info provided by the prosecutor general of Düsseldorf.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 11:58
  #1896 (permalink)  
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If you don't personally bother then you leave an open goal, if you stand if front of the goal you can't guarentee 100% success but you will reduce the risk of failure.
Security is also a deterrent, its a pain in the b*tt but I would rather have it than an open goal.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 12:02
  #1897 (permalink)  

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As someone who is suffering from a spot of Black Dog at the moment I can assure you it's not a nice place.

There was an earlier post that mentioned people who are suited and booted and on their way to work who suddenly decide just to jump in front of a train. They didn't plan to. Something clicks -

"silicon chip within her brain,
goes into overdrive"

and they do it.

My speculation only, a sudden psychotic episode may have happened here.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 12:05
  #1898 (permalink)  
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I know it's a sensitive territory for discussion but should it not have been at this point that passenger safety outweighed patient confidentiality? Surely the person treating him knew of his profession.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 12:08
  #1899 (permalink)  
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Mental health and the workplace is a big issue, whilst we need to rehabilitate those (including myself) who have had problems, equally we need to ensure that the risk to others is mitigated. - But then the condition gets hidden, because of associated stigma and job impact. I came clean, and suffered accordingly, in fact it flat-lined my career for 10 years, you could argue it ended it, given that I'm now now mid 50's
Equally, during treatment, the urge to end it was overwhelmingly strong. I didn't conceive it as a selfish notion, it simply seemed like the right answer. - I used to visit a support forum, and took a break whilst overseas for about 2 weeks. Upon visiting it again, I found that everyone was wondering where I was, and saying hope you're ok. Confused I read back through the posts and uncovered a man I didn't even know writing stuff I couldn't comprehend. That was me, and that's mental health for you.

How do you screen for that.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 12:09
  #1900 (permalink)  
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MrSnuggles, you state:-

Until we know more, please give the FO the benefit of a doubt.

Based on facts from Mr BEA and a prosecutor we know that

- FO changed his demeanor towards Capt during landing brief.

- Capt left the cockpit for some reason after that.

- Cockpit door was locked from inside.

- Breathing sounds are heard in the cockpit but no attempt to comms with ATC and no reactions/improper reactions to the immediate surroundings.

This could all be indicative of so called subtle incapacitation. It may have started with the change in attitude during the briefing. If Capt didn't notice this and went to the loo instead, it could have gotten worse until FO was unconcious or incapable of coherent thoughts - a hypoxia like state of mind.

Such things has happened before. Hypoxic pilots knows to descend if they recognise hypoxia. If there are other problems not related to hypoxia this won't help. Brain aneurysm? Heart infection (TWAR)? Blood clot/deep vein thrombosis?

Subtle incapacitation was one of the reasonings behind the Staines crash.
I think you're trying to say it could have been an alternative cause, but if that is the case, how come we are discussing his previous Depressive episodes and his sick note they've found stating he wasn't fit to fly that actual day? Are you saying that the depression and mental illness shouldnt be considered? It may have been harder to work out if he hadnt had any mental episodes surely?
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