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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

Old 27th Mar 2015, 05:08
  #1741 (permalink)  
 
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Quote:
Captain David Morgan, Air NZ's chief flight operations and safety officer, said today the policy amendment meant at least two crew members were now required to be present at all times on each aircraft's flight deck.
Air NZ should have introduced this after last years little incident...

Incident: ANZ B772 enroute on May 21st 2014, first officer locked out of cockpit
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 05:11
  #1742 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Centaurus
Airline managements should avoid political correctness tip-toeing around the problem and ensure new recruits to the cockpit are warned during their induction classes to expect they will occasionally experience personality clashes with other crew members. Just as importantly, recruits should be educated how to deal with the problem rather than be left to their own devices without any help. Prevention is often better than cure
The opposite equally applies; there are new FOs who need to be told in no-uncertain terms their position in life, because if they don't pull their heads in and learn how to fit into a cockpit environment as an FO, they will become even worse when they get to the left seat.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 05:15
  #1743 (permalink)  
 
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@thcrozier:
The two statements seem to be taken out of context. Don't read too much into it.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 05:18
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Much talk of this man experiencing suicidal depression. If that had been the case, he would have jumped off a cliff. This was mass murder, not suicide. He may not have been depressed at all.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 05:25
  #1745 (permalink)  
 
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"Captain" Bloggs

You're fitting in well with the common tenor in aviation:
Take it or leave it.
It's not only the skippers mood than can be dull, it's not only the FOs arrogance of feeling superior that disturbs CRM, please start putting the focus on management as well.
The situation of many copilots in today's aviation world is dismal. They start with at least 100k debt and are confronted with below par salaries for the first years (i don't even want to speak about p2f) They start with limited career hopes and with an ever lowering punitive environment that tells them on a daily base to shut up and be happy or leave. There are supposedly a hundred candidates just waiting to take his place. Add to that the fatiguing rosters and the sheer stupidity of daily checking, screening, hurrying and threatening from all sides that it might take that little bit less to fall into some sort of tunnel vision and depression that seems to leave no way forward.

Before blaming pilots again and again for their destiny, we might involve the airline mangers and regulators to take a deep breath and to look at the actual situation for our young colleagues. The press is invited too.

But then this might increase the price of a ticket by a few cents and reduce the profit of the airline by a nickel, so it won't happen.

Blaming pilots is easier and cheaper.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 05:33
  #1746 (permalink)  
 
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The Post.

Rudolph. "I am a commercial pilot and there is a bond between myself, my crew and my passengers. That is that we as a profession transport our charges safely from A to B, any professional aviator that doesn't understand the gravitas of this statement is in the wrong job. I really don't know whether to cry today or vow to continue to do my job to the best of my ability, probably both to be honest. This act is so far from anything I could have expected that it has completely thrown me, and I DO truly mean knocked me for six."

If there is a more classic post of a "pilot" please correct me. I shall be forever thankful to Rudolph for his posting today in this gut binding moment in our human history.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 05:39
  #1747 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by VinRouge
Time for an alternative and independent mental health service for crews?........ There has to be a mechanism provided that gives individuals the potential for greater protection in the industry through what could be caused by a run of bad luck.
Originally Posted by b8361811
Could someone from the industry please tell us if there are any consequences for your medical if you ask for help because you feel severly depressed?
Originally Posted by Kerosene
It is truly remarkable that we have such elaborate schemes for maintenance and the verification of our technical skills, but no system such as supervision to help us with the psychological challenges of our work and lives.
All of you gents are on to what this conversation should be focused on - not reinforced cockpit doors, nor minimum crew numbers on the flight deck during lav breaks. It is the giant elephant in the room and he's not going away anytime soon.

I am referring to mental health issues, anti-depressant treatments and substance abuse including alcoholism (the only legal one). Once you've admitted to any of these conditions and seek out treatment, you are guaranteed, at least in the US, of losing your job. You might get your 1st Class Medical back eventually, but no airline will hire you.

It is a catch-22. Need help, fine, we might even help you pay for it, but you're done flying for a living, buddy. It's a strange and dysfunctional policy led by liability concerns aka money.

As mentioned by a previous poster, even your personal LOL insurance has specific clauses preventing payout in cases of mental health disorders. Why? Again, money, of course. Insurers are in business to make money. I suppose a policy without such a clause might be underwritten (ALPA) but the cost would likely be enormous compared to any payout down the road.

Last edited by vapilot2004; 1st Apr 2015 at 08:13.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 05:40
  #1748 (permalink)  
 
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Glofish,

I agree, the glory days are over, and that's a cryin' shame for the younger generation joining the industry. Most of them probably have fond memories of being invited to the flight deck and looking at all those dial and switches, which the superhero flight crew could somehow understand.

The management practices required to stay in business these days leave the pilots as simple commodities.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 05:46
  #1749 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Alpine Flyer
As for the annual psych, some companies would love this at it would be a great way to get rid of unwanted pilots.
Psych tests are helpful but unfortunately not accurate enough to be usefully predictive.

Furthermore, the predictive power of psychology seems to be limited, as ever so often serial killers or molesters are released as "healed and no further danger to society" only to prove their shrinks wrong.
The only system that has worked fairly well, although not 100%, but close, is screening and monitoring of US military pilots. These guys are under constant scrutiny and we've had very few rogue pilots, the most recent I am aware of being in 1997 when a guy flew an armed A-10 around the desert southwest before (apparently) intentionally crashing with just minutes of fuel left.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 05:49
  #1750 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by thcrozier
Glofish,

I agree, the glory days are over, and that's a cryin' shame for the younger generation joining the industry. Most of them probably have fond memories of being invited to the flight deck and looking at all those dial and switches, which the superhero flight crew could somehow understand.

The management practices required to stay in business these days leave the pilots as simple commodities.
When I started off in this business all those years ago, Airlines were run by aviators who knew and cared about the business. Today it is the bean counters and financiers who are in control.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 05:50
  #1751 (permalink)  
 
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I agree ! We must not forget that this man is a mass murderer no different to someone who hates his teacher and takes his anger out by shooting scores of kids in his school
The prosecutor discounted this as being suicide so you can only presume that this was a blind red rage / anger thing where his machine gun was an aircraft
We have one post after another giving sympathy and understanding to this mass murderer and no comments about the innocent victims on the flight! Men women children and what his Evil actions have done to them and their grieving families
I hope he rots in hell if there is one
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 06:10
  #1752 (permalink)  
 
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Having to confront the reality of another uniformed lunatic - one has to ask - do the screening procedures used for the uniformed professions have the opposite effect? Of putting off "normal" people and acting as a sort of inverse filter that actually increases the proportion of whack jobs? I for one would never even consider employment that required the use of a uniform of any sort, and I consider myself to be about as normal as can be, surrounded by normal, non-uniformed people. Let be a little more direct - I have known people in the uniformed professions - police, firemen, military, and yes pilots - and they all seemed to me a little abnormal, and I don't mean that in bad way in all cases. (The creepiest person I ever met was a cop.) I am saying - I do believe - that psychological screening is a fool's errand, and that really sick people are the ones most likely to be able to manipulate such a screening to their own advantage.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 06:13
  #1753 (permalink)  
 
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I know its the modern day, new way thing, but what the hell is a person with 630 hours total time doing in sole charge of a large passenger jet with 150 souls on board? What happened to doing the hard yards, i.e. working your way up the ranks before you were given your chance on the big stuff? All the more time to weed out the potential disasters.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 06:13
  #1754 (permalink)  
 
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Point of no return

One sad aspect of this accident is that, from the moment the FO selected 100ft and locked the door, his career was over, one way or the other. Whatever motivation he had, be it dissatisfaction with his employer, financial difficulties or a spur of the moment impulsive reaction triggered by some remark from the CP would only increase tenfold if he decided to change his mind. The bridge was burnt. Maybe, just maybe, he may have panicked and frozen.

About passenger not being heard in the CVR except for the last moments of the flight, it can maybe be understood. You are in a plane that is supposed to fly over the Alps. If you don't know the area really well: how can you tell whether the plane is descending or flying over gradually higher terrain? Attitude? And of course, what would seem at first to be a stuck doorlock problem would take a little while to be recognised as the CP being locked out. Finally one adds 2+2 and it becomes obvious. The later, the better...
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 06:14
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What do you mean by whack job?

If you mean mentally ill people, they generally are only a harm to themselves, even those who have severe mental illnesses like Schizophrenia.

I think you might intend to mean narcissistic people, and they generally don't commit suicide.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 06:15
  #1756 (permalink)  
 
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DeSitter
I take your point. I've met plenty of genuine eccentrics in the twenty years that I've been flying.
But who's going to do the job?

You?
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 06:16
  #1757 (permalink)  
 
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Autism?
Epilepsy?

Partial incapacitation?

Halucinatory reaction due to taking undeclared anti depressants ?

All of the above assuming there is coherent evidence P1 was indeed locked out and that he was indeed the one banging at the door.

Does German Wings really not practice 2 crew seated in the cockpit policy? Due to operating with mininal cabin crew? Low cost driven?

How about now imlenenting cockpit CTV and an Emergency Door release policy that each cabin crew can access via SATCOM from their communucation panel to Security Chief?
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 06:23
  #1758 (permalink)  
 
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I agree ! We must not forget that this man is a mass murderer no different to someone who hates his teacher and takes his anger out by shooting scores of kids in his school
The prosecutor discounted this as being suicide so you can only presume that this was a blind red rage / anger thing where his machine gun was an aircraft
We have one post after another giving sympathy and understanding to this mass murderer and no comments about the innocent victims on the flight! Men women children and what his Evil actions have done to them and their grieving families
I hope he rots in hell if there is one
I never knew you had a sideline writing for the Daily Mail Pace

Until the FDR is retrieved and there has been a proper investigation I will reserve judgement
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 06:23
  #1759 (permalink)  
 
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I'm sure 'the industry' will take measures to prevent this happening again. As long as it doesn't cost too much money.....

I like the US model, where an ATP needs 1500 hours. Nut jobs might be discovered by then, but it would cost money.

Better Terms and conditions, treating pilots with respect, might help, but that would cost money too. Right now pilots have the same status as fuel.

Stopping 'pay to fly' might help recruit better, more motivated pilots, who want to fly because of a genuine interest in the job, but it would cost money.

Putting a hostie in, while you take a piss: free. Will be done!

Personally, I try to never leave the cockpit. I'm paid as PIC to look after everything, all the time. Can't do it from the toilet. That's how I see it anyway, and isn't really a reflection on the F/O.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 06:24
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You wouldn't be hypoxic though at the point the aircraft slammed into the hill.
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