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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

Old 27th Mar 2015, 00:45
  #1681 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Florida
Posts: 93
Captain Osbon was ill, not suicidal. He was a respected Check Airman that was working himself to exhaustion. He was locked out of the cockpit by an astute First Officer after he exited unexpectedly.

The charges were eventually dropped, as I recall. Sadly, I heard he's back to normal and hangs out at his local airport with his old flying buddies, but can't get his medical reinstated.

On my lanyard, I still wear the laminated American Flag Clayton made and was handing out to JetBlue crewmembers after 9-11. He was a good guy that got quite ill.
AKAAB is offline  
Old 27th Mar 2015, 00:49
  #1682 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 32
Bizarre to imply hours flown in anyway is responsible for 'losing it', if anything it's the opposite.

I was down route as a fairly junior LH FO, while having a drink with the skip he totally lost it and got furious about an internal political disagreement. He'd been around for decades and seemed to view things as not as good as they used to be and pilots no longer having respect internally. Not saying he didn't have a point but this anger spilled over to his attitude with the rest of the crew, he was very very angry.

Now I'm not implying he would go on to commit mass murder but more to make the point that 600 hours or seniority is largely irrelevant as an indication of anger towards the airline or the world in general.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 00:56
  #1683 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Florida
Posts: 93
And, anyone that can keep his record clean can buy his way into a cockpit?

I'll resign before I allow that in my cockpit. I think most pilots would revolt over selling the jumpseat and refuse to fly.

Next silly idea...

How about this. We start a bulletin board for Professional Pilots to discuss industry topics without non-pilots chiming in. This is not a charette, people.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 00:56
  #1684 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2004
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The very WORST thing I feel we could do here is rush to the clamour of 'Something MUST be done about this!!!'

Frankly, the best thing to do here is NOTHING - aside from enforcing a '2 persons present' rule already adhered to in many jurisdictions.

If we rush to implement 'something', it is likely we will be dealing with unintended consequences somewhere down the line - and we will have solved nothing.

Remember, we are (if confirmed) dealing with what is probably the rarest cause of all accidents - only SIX cases have been recorded in the whole history of commercial aviation, and not all were positively confirmed.
TheInquisitor is offline  
Old 27th Mar 2015, 00:58
  #1685 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 35
Like everything else, there would be redundancy. Back up sensor, that sort of thing. My point is having something like that would make it virtually impossible for *one* unstable pilot to take control.
And what then happens when one pilot is legitmately incapacited (heart attack, stroke, seizure, etc.) and the single remaining pilot must take control and divert to nearest landing?
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 01:05
  #1686 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Age: 58
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This investigation will likely get very frustrating to follow due to the legal implications and financial exposure for all the principles. In a year or so someone will start posting vids from found sim cards from pax , but I'm cynical enough to think vested interests and maintaining public trust will likely trump many more public statements of fact or theories from officials.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 01:06
  #1687 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Santa Rosa, CA, USA
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Oldoberon is a wise one

Originally Posted by oldoberon View Post
loads of poster doing as you have picking on 1 point and giving a example of doubt, you must look at the whole picture.

A) why didn't he answer radio, ah they failed at just the moment the captain left FD

B) why didn't he get out of his seat and let the pilot in -ah he was paralysed with fear.

C) Finally why did he change altitude setting having just reached ToC, just having a play was he.

COME ON look at the whole picture.
This happens over and over, posters ignore the evidence that doesn't fit their scenario. That's backwards. Form your scenario from the evidence. Truthiness is when we believe that what we WANT to be true is true. Stick to truth.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 01:10
  #1688 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: sydney
Age: 57
Posts: 464
The thesis is that the more accurate definition of 'terrorism' is in the method, not the motive. When you kill a lot of innocent people in an extremely public and brutal way, doing something that will dominate the media for days and weeks, that IS a form of terrorism, whatever the precise motive.

As the author of that article pointed out in respect of school shootings and other mass murders, it's about the TV ratings, the publicity, the message, being remembered, becoming a household name; whatever the motivation, personal or political, it's an act of terrorism. That's the correct lens to view this kind of act through.
Again, 100% agree Ranger.

The event itself and the consequences of the event are the key elements of the more recent definitions of terrorism.

The underlying motive (religious, political....) may help us to understand, and may possibly aid identification of high risk people in the future. But the underlying motive does not in itself make (or not make) something an act of terrorism.

Sometimes the motive is irrational and not aligned with anything coherent. Sometimes there no stated or apparent motive. Sometimes no one ever claims responsibility. That does not mean it is not a terrorist act.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 01:12
  #1689 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Las Vegas NV.
Age: 60
Posts: 165
Solution: Fire all civilian airline pilots and then replace them with military pilots of the respective countries.

I proposed this many years ago for the U.S., except in a slightly different form: fire all the airline pilots in the U.S. and replace them with FAA pilots. That would be the end of crashes and regulatory violations.

FAA pilots are more than capable of breaking an aircraft. They do quite frequently.

Look the upshot is if you don't trust the driver, don't get on the bus. Simple as that.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 01:13
  #1690 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 1996
Location: Check with Ops
Posts: 742
Basil & Ollie Onion,

Even in this day and age with quick-donning oxygen masks etc there are still plenty of places around the world where it is compulsory for a pilot to wear an oxygen mask if left alone on the flight deck. Japan is one country that springs to mind, where > 25000' a pilot left on his lonesome has to wear one and > 41000' at least one pilot must be on oxygen, no matter how many other pilots are present. These rules, I believe, are based on the US FARs but maybe the USA has moved away from such practises. I am not suggesting this was the case here and I am not suggesting any relevance but I just want to ensure that just because you've never heard of it or never done it doesn't mean the practise does not exist........no matter how daft.


Before you pontificate and try to advance an obvious vendetta of yours to rid the world of 'cadets' (an action that seems common in Australia) and rant about the qualifications of the Captain, you might want to check your facts and realise the skipper had > 10000 hrs total and > 6000 hrs on the Airbus. He previously flew for Lufthansa (they're a rather large and well-respected airline in Europe, which is north of Darwin) and, whereas I'm sure he couldn't claim to have done the 'hard yards' :roll eyes: in the Outback mustering cattle, I think his qualifications and experience more than fulfil even the requirements of Australia....the heart of aviation and great practises.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 01:15
  #1691 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: In Hyperspace...
Posts: 395
Adding MORE technology is NOT the answer!!

A piece of technology will require power - and you must have the ability to cut power to it for safety reasons - so what would be the point of it being there in the first place?

If something were to deny certain actions to a pilot, again it MUST have an override function - for safety reasons - because equipment can fail, and cannot possibly be designed to take ALL possible scenarios into account. (Even an almighty Airbus can be overridden, albeit not easily!) - and if the system can be overridden by a pilot intent on malfeasance - again, WHAT IS THE POINT OF IT BEING THERE?

Folks, look at what we have here - a piece of 'technology' (the flight deck door), albeit mostly mechanical, installed in good faith for good reasons, that COULDN'T be overridden (from outside the flight deck, at least) - and look at the result......
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 01:19
  #1692 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Rainsville
Posts: 48
Some people here seem keen to suggest that the general public's insistence on cheap fares has somehow contributed to the misery suffered by underpaid, overworked pilots. This is very wide of the mark.

The problem isn't that airlines can't make money from increasingly tight customers. It's that whenever they do have any money they give it to shareholders instead of investing it in the workforce.

AA, for example, has announced a $2 billion buyback this year, which is to say that it's taken $2 billion of cash and given it straight to shareholders. Can any AA pilots confirm that the company is perfect and that this $2 billion is surplus to requirements?

All airlines, all big companies in fact, do the exact same thing these days. It doesn't matter how profitable the company is, costs are driven to the bone anyway to maximise the payout to shareholders.

Needless to say, management themselves invariably own lots of stock themselves—and using the company's cash to pay off shareholders also means that they can be assured of almost any pay rise they want. And financial engineering means that they can do this almost regardless of the health of the underlying business.

So let's put this to bed. It's not the customers' fault. Most folk are in exactly the same boat as pilots—employed by companies that exist solely to pay returns to shareholders, with employees viewed merely as a "human resource".

Indeed, this is why people understand and sympathise with striking pilots. It's not the public who want to see you downgraded.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 01:22
  #1693 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: bangko
Posts: 20
WTF was a co pilot with only 630 hours flight time doing flying an airliner ?!? Even the pilot at 6000 hours after 10 years in aviation is too inexperienced to be a bloody A320 captain.

Yep. It's obviously inherently unsafe to put low houred pilots in the flight deck. Just look at the terrible safety records of BA, KLM and LH who have been doing it for decades, and RYR and EZY who have been doing it for 15 years.
Agree.... But let's not forget the biggest death toll in history was a arrogant training captain who ignored his 'junior staff'. KLM in Tennerife

Experienced captains also screw up, as did the Airfrance a few years back
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 01:23
  #1694 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: New York
Posts: 50
Have an FA fingerprint as a tie breaker. Simple voting logic.
Yes ... that's flawless logic.

I can see it now. A raging in-flight fire. One of the pilots has a heart attack. The other is stuck up in the cockpit, with the autopilot refusing to leave cruise altitude until the flight attendant comes up to the cockpit to bio-ID, at which point they can start an emergency descent.

This thread just keeps getting better and better.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 01:25
  #1695 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2008
Location: los angeles
Posts: 5
Health supplements?

some health supplement can build up to toxic levels in the body, and may cause problems. Some are water, bone, FAT soluble... A person can cause themselves harm if they over use or otherwise over-do-it on their intake. Among fat soluble supplements are vitamins D, A, K, and E. There're others. Then there're supplement composed of combinations of many diverse constituents, which I never take, since to be safer, I try to focus on what I've identified as an actual individual deficiency. While staying well hydrated is fundamental, high energy and extended exercise is dehydrating. A lot of families are grieving today.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 01:32
  #1696 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: HK
Age: 63
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If as it is reported there had been concerns of mental health one wonders if assessment of the pilot alone is sufficient. It may be time to look further into their lives, their finances etc to assess their background stresses when making evaluations. There could be family grief, divorce, financial or romantic issues, insomnia or other factors which may not be revealed by the pilot himself. . How many guys come into work at the limits of their stress, say nothing, are asked nothing and show zero emotions. The days of promoting the tough face is over. There needs to be a recognition that on top of jet lag and where we work with a different crew each day, without anyone being able to notice a turn down in behavior as in most regular jobs, sometimes its family and friends ,ex wives, girlfriends partners, children or the Bank managers who might be the last to be surprised when something like this happens.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 01:37
  #1697 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 10

Wow. You are against the idea of people who you carry on-board, wanting to be informed about the safety of the flight?

That is a serious sense of entitlement you have there sir.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 01:39
  #1698 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2008
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It may be time to look further into their lives, their finances etc to assess their background stresses when making evaluations. There could be family grief, divorce, financial or romantic issues, insomnia or other factors which may not be revealed by the pilot himself.
Well, there goes at least half of us...

Could make bankruptcies and negotiations real interesting.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 01:43
  #1699 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: YYZ
Posts: 4
Andreas seemed like a very "sensitive" young man, dividing his time between living with his parents and his male room mate. Posing in front of the Golden Gate bridge in SFO. He doesn't seem to fit the image of the typical macho aviator. I wonder what kind of affect this could have on one's career at Lufthansa, or the stress that would cause?
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 01:46
  #1700 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Oakland, CA
Age: 69
Posts: 427
Indeed, this is why people understand and sympathise with striking pilots.
Speak for yourself. I live in US and I am a pilot (not commercial) but I never detect any sympathy on this side of the Atlantic when pilots strike. Everybody knows that except of some rookies working for regionals they are well compensated compared with other professions. Oh yeah, we know their compensations went down considerably in the last 10 years but they still are well compensated. Talk to pilots like Les Abend from American Airlines (you can see him often on CNN these days when there is another crash) - he complains about the recent pay-cuts but grudgingly admits he is still well compensated.
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