Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France
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Reasons
So now that we know what happened the next phase is to find out why...
People must be pretty desperate to take 149 people with them. It could be terrorism but he didn't say anything,so no religious or political screams prior to a martyr death. Keeping silent means a missed unique terror opportunity.
This therefore sounds like extreme depression of a 24 year old leading to a suicide unable to think of consequences for others.
I hope for the aviation industry his reasoning was not around the current financial woes of young pilots who have invested the value of a house to get a job which in many cases now only pays a mediocre salary.
People must be pretty desperate to take 149 people with them. It could be terrorism but he didn't say anything,so no religious or political screams prior to a martyr death. Keeping silent means a missed unique terror opportunity.
This therefore sounds like extreme depression of a 24 year old leading to a suicide unable to think of consequences for others.
I hope for the aviation industry his reasoning was not around the current financial woes of young pilots who have invested the value of a house to get a job which in many cases now only pays a mediocre salary.
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Something not really clear to me....
why the FO have to lock the Cpt outside and start the descent?!
I can't think about deliberate suicide from a young man
why the FO have to lock the Cpt outside and start the descent?!
I can't think about deliberate suicide from a young man
actually statiscally, youngs commit suicide the most.
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In the days when I was flying I controlled access to my office!
How many more people must die before they review this "locked door" policy?
And don't give me this blah, blah, blah, about terrorists etc. I have had enough of this.
And I could also fly a Tiger Moth.
How many more people must die before they review this "locked door" policy?
And don't give me this blah, blah, blah, about terrorists etc. I have had enough of this.
And I could also fly a Tiger Moth.
The locked door approach seems to have contributed to a number of incidents. Some form of key kept inside the flight deck that a crew member could take with them if they are leaving is something to look at. We seem happy to have a crash axe inside the flight deck, why not a key to get in the door as well.
Regarding why crew on a sub-2 hour flight even need to use The Facilities rather than before starting, that is I am afraid a feature of LCCs, minimum turnrounds at the outer point all scheduled by operational research down to the minute, everyone busy, and a desire to stick any delay in turnround on somebody. So the practice develops of doing so once you reach the cruise. Likewise the LCC justification for not having a cabin crew member step in is, I suspect, that on a sub-2 hour sector they are expected to be up and selling from the cart the moment the belts sign goes off. It's a question for the various boards of directors, whether commercial zeal has been allowed to get ahead of operational integrity.
Regarding why crew on a sub-2 hour flight even need to use The Facilities rather than before starting, that is I am afraid a feature of LCCs, minimum turnrounds at the outer point all scheduled by operational research down to the minute, everyone busy, and a desire to stick any delay in turnround on somebody. So the practice develops of doing so once you reach the cruise. Likewise the LCC justification for not having a cabin crew member step in is, I suspect, that on a sub-2 hour sector they are expected to be up and selling from the cart the moment the belts sign goes off. It's a question for the various boards of directors, whether commercial zeal has been allowed to get ahead of operational integrity.
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@J74
I can't think about deliberate suicide from a young man
Where have you been hiding all these years? Sadly there are many young people who will take their own lives.
As far as the question of 'secrecy' by the authorities is concerned, if this was America then I'd be pointing at the lawyers insisting that everything was run past them first. Strong possibility that this might be happening here. Even to the extent of insurance companies calling the shots? For example, in the UK many schools with Public Liability Insurance are forbidden by their insurers from admitting or even apologising for any incident. Crazy world.
I can't think about deliberate suicide from a young man
Where have you been hiding all these years? Sadly there are many young people who will take their own lives.
As far as the question of 'secrecy' by the authorities is concerned, if this was America then I'd be pointing at the lawyers insisting that everything was run past them first. Strong possibility that this might be happening here. Even to the extent of insurance companies calling the shots? For example, in the UK many schools with Public Liability Insurance are forbidden by their insurers from admitting or even apologising for any incident. Crazy world.
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If this is correct what an awful situation and terrible for the families. We know nothing about the FO and his background was he a mentally unstable Lad or someone with Radical views i.e. terrorist actions?
Airbus will be relieved that their aircraft was not at Fault
German wings will say their pilot held a first class medical
Who will be held at fault the medical profession?
Very Very sad I cannot understand the mentality of someone who could do this to so many people in his care if true
If that was the case throw himself under a train not destroy the lives of 150 people
Airbus will be relieved that their aircraft was not at Fault
German wings will say their pilot held a first class medical
Who will be held at fault the medical profession?
Very Very sad I cannot understand the mentality of someone who could do this to so many people in his care if true
I hope for the aviation industry his reasoning was not around the current financial woes of young pilots who have invested the value of a house to get a job which in many cases now only pays a mediocre salary.
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No mobile or SMS from passengers? Can investigation board demand raw data from mobile providers aling the route?
Pax electronic devices? Any recovered? Content examined?
Pax electronic devices? Any recovered? Content examined?
The lunacy of the locked cockpit door policy has been exposed here, at NO time should anyone person be able to block access to the flight deck. We would almost be better to go back to a light door that can be locked but is not impenetrable when forced. Someone trying to break in from the outside is likely to be stopped by crew and passengers, sadly with the current policy no one can intervene once someone gets to be alone behind that door.
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about F/O
F/O was entitled to pilot
Don't know how old
Preciously the procurer said rather loudly : he is not a terrorist if you want me to say that.
At the very end of the record shouts are heard. Death is immediate.
F/O was 28
Don't know how old
Preciously the procurer said rather loudly : he is not a terrorist if you want me to say that.
At the very end of the record shouts are heard. Death is immediate.
F/O was 28
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If this is correct what an awful situation and terrible for the families. We
know nothing about the FO and his background was he a mentally unstable Lad or
someone with Radical views i.e. terrorist actions?
Airbus will be
relieved that their aircraft was not at Fault
German wings will say their
pilot held a first class medical
Who will be held at fault the medical
profession?
Very Very sad I cannot understand the mentality of someone
who could do this to so many people in his care if true
When a family member tried to commit suicide, I had a real hard time trying to understand why or how - it just made me frustrated. The problem is, they are not thinking logically. It's completely illogical. That's one of the big issues with Mental health. It's hard to relate to or comprehend unless you have been in that situation and thought in such a way at some time or another (Which I have not)
This is something the families will have to deal with. The problem is, this is the worst probable outcome, as part of the grieving process is knowing and understanding "Why" - Which if it was mechanical is easier than this, as you cannot comprehend or make sense of it logically. I feel for the families.
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A room full of elephants
Lets start at the top.
Germanwings is a low cost operation. This means what it says on the tin. Low cost. The public only sees low fares, but that is not possible without low cost.
So where do low cost companies cut the cost? Everywhere! Staffing, training, maintenance, terms and conditions, HR, fuel, flight and duty hours, you name it, it is all done at the lowest possible cost.
Finance people love this, but we as pilots know one basic thing: Safety cost money.
The captain of this ill fated flight was a Lufthansa captain. Or was he? Was he not a Germanwings captain? Did he do this transfer happily, or was it a case of "you do this or else?"
The first officer was a low hour pilot. Nothing unusual about this. I was one myself. But when I started my company put me through a lot of training before the gave me a type rating. Yes, I did not have to pay for it!
Well, both training and terms and conditions for new hires have been reduced. A lot. In my airline, this affects the motivation of the new guys. They earn slightly more that a McDonalds worker.
The LH group pilots are in conflict with their management. They have been on strike. Pensions and salaries, and if the rumor is correct, GW is heading for a big reduction in both.
I have been in the same situation. A lot of pressure from the top, including turning other airline staff agains the "overpaid and underworked" pilots. Threats of bankruptcy and loss of job and income
While all this was going on, we were supposed to fly as usual. Safe and on time. Not let any management bullying affect us.
Did it? Of course. Some more than others. A lot of complaining and pissed off pilots. Some went sick. Depression? Who knows, but guys got tired. Not fit for flight. Most went to work anyway.
We are stuck behind a CRM barrier in the shape of a steel door. It keeps the bad guys out, but it also enables a suicidal pilot to lock out his colleague.
This industry is getting sicker by the day. I am sure there will be more accidents before a red flag is raised. The Americans have started to reverse the situations. How many accidents do we need in Europe before we do the same?
Germanwings is a low cost operation. This means what it says on the tin. Low cost. The public only sees low fares, but that is not possible without low cost.
So where do low cost companies cut the cost? Everywhere! Staffing, training, maintenance, terms and conditions, HR, fuel, flight and duty hours, you name it, it is all done at the lowest possible cost.
Finance people love this, but we as pilots know one basic thing: Safety cost money.
The captain of this ill fated flight was a Lufthansa captain. Or was he? Was he not a Germanwings captain? Did he do this transfer happily, or was it a case of "you do this or else?"
The first officer was a low hour pilot. Nothing unusual about this. I was one myself. But when I started my company put me through a lot of training before the gave me a type rating. Yes, I did not have to pay for it!
Well, both training and terms and conditions for new hires have been reduced. A lot. In my airline, this affects the motivation of the new guys. They earn slightly more that a McDonalds worker.
The LH group pilots are in conflict with their management. They have been on strike. Pensions and salaries, and if the rumor is correct, GW is heading for a big reduction in both.
I have been in the same situation. A lot of pressure from the top, including turning other airline staff agains the "overpaid and underworked" pilots. Threats of bankruptcy and loss of job and income
While all this was going on, we were supposed to fly as usual. Safe and on time. Not let any management bullying affect us.
Did it? Of course. Some more than others. A lot of complaining and pissed off pilots. Some went sick. Depression? Who knows, but guys got tired. Not fit for flight. Most went to work anyway.
We are stuck behind a CRM barrier in the shape of a steel door. It keeps the bad guys out, but it also enables a suicidal pilot to lock out his colleague.
This industry is getting sicker by the day. I am sure there will be more accidents before a red flag is raised. The Americans have started to reverse the situations. How many accidents do we need in Europe before we do the same?
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Tabloid reports are .....tabloid reports.
However, an Air India Express incidence a few years ago indicates a possible scenario:
Captain went to the toilet...the inexperienced F/O involountarily disconnected the A/P when alone in the cockpit and the aircraft entered a steep descent....the F/O was too panicked/busy to let the captain back into the cockpit....the captain finally gained emergency entry and literally crawled (according to himself) over his seat and pulled back the yoke....aircraft overstressed during recovery...but recovered after several thousand feet descent.
Once, while deadheading, I had to use the emergency entry procedure when the cockpit crew was in an "undesirable mental state". During that incidence I had more adrenaline in my body than during my other 40+ aviation years combined, and it took some combined effort to get the code right during the stress of the moment.
During line checks or LPCs I regularly ask the crew for the current code: Not everybody remembers the latest, revised one. If you press an outdated code, you will not get access.....simple.
I have witnessed several cases of door failures that had to be reset.
In case of a rapid, severe decompression the door is designed to blow open, so that scenario (decompression/door knocking) is unlikely IMHO.
As other has pointed out here, the armed & locked door may solve a certain security issue, but it does create other serious safety issues.
Can anyone confirm for sure that LH/4U does not require a C/C in the cockpit when a pilot vacate??
However, an Air India Express incidence a few years ago indicates a possible scenario:
Captain went to the toilet...the inexperienced F/O involountarily disconnected the A/P when alone in the cockpit and the aircraft entered a steep descent....the F/O was too panicked/busy to let the captain back into the cockpit....the captain finally gained emergency entry and literally crawled (according to himself) over his seat and pulled back the yoke....aircraft overstressed during recovery...but recovered after several thousand feet descent.
Once, while deadheading, I had to use the emergency entry procedure when the cockpit crew was in an "undesirable mental state". During that incidence I had more adrenaline in my body than during my other 40+ aviation years combined, and it took some combined effort to get the code right during the stress of the moment.
During line checks or LPCs I regularly ask the crew for the current code: Not everybody remembers the latest, revised one. If you press an outdated code, you will not get access.....simple.
I have witnessed several cases of door failures that had to be reset.
In case of a rapid, severe decompression the door is designed to blow open, so that scenario (decompression/door knocking) is unlikely IMHO.
As other has pointed out here, the armed & locked door may solve a certain security issue, but it does create other serious safety issues.
Can anyone confirm for sure that LH/4U does not require a C/C in the cockpit when a pilot vacate??
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It does rather seem that the decision to install intrusion proof Flight Deck Doors has become a victim of the Law of Unintended Consequences.
After the Ethiopian, when I went out, I'd ask the FO in jest where we were going to divert to...
Even if you up the psychological checks on entry (1st Class 1), this omits all current crew, and the prospect of change post Class 1 issue? I mentioned earlier it would be very hard to change the current system without severe disruption to the current airline schedules.
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Serious problem.
There is a growing awareness that aircraft are vulnerable when one pilot leaves the cockpit.
If you allow any form of access from the cabin, for instance to avoid a Helios situation, then it might be used by desperate cabin crew during a hijacking. If you don't then either pilots can not leave the flight deck during the flight of if they do the aircraft is vulnerable.
There haven't been nearly as many hijackings since armoured doors were installed but I am a little surprised that once they were mandated no one took the time to think it all the way through.
There is a growing awareness that aircraft are vulnerable when one pilot leaves the cockpit.
If you allow any form of access from the cabin, for instance to avoid a Helios situation, then it might be used by desperate cabin crew during a hijacking. If you don't then either pilots can not leave the flight deck during the flight of if they do the aircraft is vulnerable.
There haven't been nearly as many hijackings since armoured doors were installed but I am a little surprised that once they were mandated no one took the time to think it all the way through.
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Well said catch21, heart breaking.
It looks like more risk of this than terrorist action.
Should it be redesigned that pilots can go to the loo with no locked door between them and the cockpit with another door between the loo and cabin.
I guess the quick answer is, there must always be two crew members in the cockpit at all times. So before a pilot leaves the cockpit for any reason a crew member comes in and stands behind the door to let him back in.
Trust no one, the cockpit must always have two people in it, I think is a must be solution, no matter what is done with the door system.
It looks like more risk of this than terrorist action.
Should it be redesigned that pilots can go to the loo with no locked door between them and the cockpit with another door between the loo and cabin.
I guess the quick answer is, there must always be two crew members in the cockpit at all times. So before a pilot leaves the cockpit for any reason a crew member comes in and stands behind the door to let him back in.
Trust no one, the cockpit must always have two people in it, I think is a must be solution, no matter what is done with the door system.
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I don't believe it was suicide. I believe that the First Officer accidentally disconnected the Autopilot, the aircraft went into a descent. He was unable to stop the descent. In attempting to open the door for the Captain he accidentally locked the door on 5 minute timer. He then went into shock and was not responsive to anything.