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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

Old 25th Mar 2015, 14:51
  #641 (permalink)  
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Initial drill is to initiate descent.

At a later stage in the drill you set FL100 or MSA.

Big difference from what you said and may be very important.
If related to this particular accident we still don't know, but, wouldn't it be good to limit the range at which the altitude selector changes 1000ft per click? Or at least make it stop at a certain altitude selection requiring further input to go below that limit.
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Old 25th Mar 2015, 14:52
  #642 (permalink)  
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Back in the air force I underwent hypoxia training, mostly to recognize symptoms, at a slow depressurization rate. I remember it being not at all unpleasant. You were barely conscious of the changes acurring to your mental state.

I recently experienced a rapid decompression to 12900' cabin altitude. A cabin pressure controller failed, the backup switching circuit failed, and as a surprise the fail safe mode drove the outflow valves full open. Timely actions of my FO regaining manual control over the outflow caves saved us from an emergency descent.

What I didn't expect was how the rapid depressurization felt. You felt very ill throughout your whole body. I can only imagine a catastrophic pressurization loss would combine the two, leaving very limited functioning ability.

The BA windscreen event happened at 17000', closer to what I experienced, not nearly what FL380 would produce.
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Old 25th Mar 2015, 14:54
  #643 (permalink)  
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Since MH370 the ITU-R has set up a working group specifically to investigate and propose suitable technology for real-time tracking/monitoring of aircraft.
May take a few years but it will come.
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Old 25th Mar 2015, 14:54
  #644 (permalink)  
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NY Times said what?

the pics (from BEA!!) of the CVR show the memory cards cilinder quite intact and still attached to its base. Unless the memory cards can "evaporate"
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Old 25th Mar 2015, 14:55
  #645 (permalink)  
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My point about the autopilot is that the aircraft should have levelled off at the fcu selected altitude. The PF should have whizzed in a lower altitude, and then refined it second time around. Either way it should have been set at something above 100 or refined to 100 or msa. If the pilots were incapacitated then the ap would have levelled off at the fcu alt.

Who knows anyway, it's all speculation and the conviction here for this theory is unfounded.

There are many other possibilities. Some more likely than this one.
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Old 25th Mar 2015, 14:55
  #646 (permalink)  
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re fitting windows- inside outside

md11 said... They are fitted from the outside, same as the B747, B757 and B767.
From recollection- B767 cockpit skull cap ( upper half of cockpit-windscreen assembly ) used Titanium surround. This was the result of tests with chicken cannon which fired a large ( dead) chicken carcass at windshield and windshield crown section. On the early 767, major hydraulic systems/valves came together in the crown and loss of those would be a disaster.

And from memory - it is NOT impossible that some sort of ' bird' strike' at that altitude may have happened.
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Old 25th Mar 2015, 14:56
  #647 (permalink)  
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the picture is of the CVR, which I commented upon.

the NY TIMES is talking about the recovery of the FDR, which seems to have more damage to the round part containing the memory modules.

FDR is not CVR, capish?
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Old 25th Mar 2015, 14:56
  #648 (permalink)  
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Re: the discussions on automatic terrain avoidance, I find it incredible that an Airbus which can automatically ensure it is not flown outside of it's flight can be flow into terrain
It's call a landing... Typically executed on a runway
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Old 25th Mar 2015, 14:57
  #649 (permalink)  
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BEA Press Conf about to start (4pm Paris time)
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Old 25th Mar 2015, 14:57
  #650 (permalink)  
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Well the pics are showing the CVR. What NYT is saying is that they found the FDR but it's card is dislodged and missing.
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Old 25th Mar 2015, 14:58
  #651 (permalink)  
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Well there now doesn't seem to even be agreement as to the state of the black boxes, so what hope for coherence on anything else....this from AFP this afternoon..(1425 European time):

"A second so-called black box, in this case recording flight data, has yet to be found on the mountain in the French Alps where the Airbus A320 went down Tuesday.

Photos issued by the BEA crash investigation office showed the black box -- in fact coloured orange -- in a badly mangled state, its metal casing twisted and ripped by the force of the crash.

Officials acknowledge it is badly damaged but say they still expect to retrieve some data from it, although it may take some time."

I must admit having seen a fair bit of French TV coverage over the last 24 hours, some good, some bad, I'm inclined to agree with the French take on what's been found and the state it's in ...and I suspect in any case we really can now consign this mornings story about investigators hearing the windscreen breaking to the bin.

Flash - French air disaster black box 'damaged' - France 24
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Old 25th Mar 2015, 15:00
  #652 (permalink)  
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Am familiar with this AD and the more recent issues related to OEB 48.

Since a crew recently recovered in about 4000 feet from that malfunction, and this A320 accident had an altitude differential of about 30,000 feet between ToC and ground impact, and the issues with the AoA malfunction have gotten wide circulation, an initial estimate of the crew being able to handle that AoA malfunction seems reasonable.
Granted, ruling that out is probably premature (particularly if other malfunctions were present) but it doesn't seem to fit very well with what is known in the public domain. Your caution on over-speculation is accepted.
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Old 25th Mar 2015, 15:05
  #653 (permalink)  
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Because we practice the proper way to handle a loss of cabin pressure, and we have to show examiners in the simulator, over and over, for years, we would LIKELY do it the right way in an emergency because it is now the easiest way to deal with things.

THE WEAK point is that the oxygen system is not duplicated at the source of the oxygen. We have two engines on the plane, but only ONE cylinder of oxygen. (cockpit).

IF the oxygen masks dropped in the main cabin, flight attendants with "WALK AROUND BOTTLES" would eventually check on the pilots if possible. PA announcements from the cockpit would preclude the need to check on them.

IT IS Likely the passenger oxygen system was a design with oxygen generators, BUT SINCE I AM NOT a pilot for GERMANWINGS, I ask this question:

IS THE MAIN CABIN/PASSENGER oxygen system a cylinder or individual oxygen generators?

I hope this is a reasonable question and not flamed like what happened to old boeing driver's reasonable question.
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Old 25th Mar 2015, 15:05
  #654 (permalink)  
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Anyone considering windscreen failure/rapid decompression would do well to read the AAIB report for the 1-11 incident to G-BJRT.

That happened as the A/C was passing FL170; imagining the same scenario at FL380 is thought provoking.

In that incident, "the flight deck door had been blown onto the flight deck where it lay across the radio and navigation console".

Would a current-day reinforced door remain in place after a rapid cockpit decompression at FL380?
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Old 25th Mar 2015, 15:06
  #655 (permalink)  
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Pontius Navigator
Explosive decompression is a near instantaneous as you will get. As suggested, on a large aircraft you would not expect explosive decompression from loss of cabin Windows etc.
The 2008 Qantas event is informative. When cruising at 29 000' (cabin altitude 3 700') an oxygen bottle exploded creating a 3 square metre hole in the fuselage. One second later the A/P disconnected and the aircraft pitched nose UP. Three seconds later the cabin altitude reached 10 000'. Pilots put on oxy masks and established communications with each other. At 22 seconds descent was initiated (thrust to idle/ speed brakes extended). At approx 40 seconds the uncommanded climb was reversed and and the descent established, maximum cabin of 25 900' occurred at about this time. The mean rate of descent was about 3 000 fpm and the cabin altitude was about about 3000' below the aircraft's altitude during the descent.

The key points are that at 29 000' and with a 3 sq m hole, cabin altitude reached 10 000' within 3" and 26 000' within 40". With idle thrust, speed brakes extended snd IAS at the cruise IAS, descent rate was ~ 3 000 fpm.
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Old 25th Mar 2015, 15:06
  #656 (permalink)  
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This is my first post on here. As a non-professional pilot (PPL in training) but a long time follower of this forum, it is most tiresome to read constant "stop speculating" posts.

OK, we all want to know the truth about what has happened, but this thread is now 30-odd pages long, half of which is speculation and half of which is people moaning about the speculation.

Every thread about air accidents here is full of conjecture. That's the nature of a forum - people discuss their different opinions. Constantly bleating about this adds nothing, but the speculation does at least stimulate debate. But surely it's time to recognise that this is a forum and everyone is entitled to an opinion. Moaning about it won't change it. If you don't agree with what someone says, offer an evidence-based rebuttal which can further inform the debate. Throwing the teddies out of the pram hardly helps things does it, and history proves that you're on a hiding to nothing anyway!

Can you imagine what these forums would look like if it were entirely speculation and debate-free?

Post 1: There's been a crash
Post 2: (8 months later) AAIB report
End of thread.

Some posts are stupid, I accept that, but why oh why do people need to take such issue with people offering a potential cause or asking about the viability of certain events occurring?

Some people know more than others, but seriously - join in what is, on the whole, a constructive debate. If you don't want to discuss the possibilities, don't join in at all.

As someone who takes an interest in air safety and aviation incidents, I find this forum most informative and it allows me to consider privately, what my views about a potential cause of this tragedy might be. I won't post that, because I'm not well-informed enough to know the truth, but I read all the posts with an open mind and with interest.

I would also like to thank all of you guys who do have first-hand knowledge of these aircraft, flight procedures and protocols, systems and other aspects who make these threads very interesting.

And for those journalists who think that this forum is full of facts ready to be spewed verbatim onto the TV screen, please think again. This is a rumour network after all
Quite a first post there Morten. For a lot of us here (who seem to have been here since Pontious was a pilot) what you said isn't new. You won't stop what you've written about and I, for one, am tired of 'newbies' first post telling us what we should and shouldn't be writing about. Lecture over.

found the FDR but it's card is dislodged and missing.
It's either dislodged or it's missing, it can't be both schurley Mish Moneypenny.

Last edited by Evanelpus; 25th Mar 2015 at 15:49.
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Old 25th Mar 2015, 15:10
  #657 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Evanelpus View Post
Quite a first post there Morten. For a lot of us here (who seem to have been here since Pontious was a pilot) what you said isn't new. You won't stop what you've written about and I, for one, am tired of 'newbies' first post telling us what we should and shouldn't be writing about. Lecture over.
You must admit a lot of people on here seem borderline aggressive in response to some questions. Sure, some pilots on here have 200 years of flying experience, but they could at least maintain a level of politeness when addressing people's questions/comments, however stupid they maybe.
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Old 25th Mar 2015, 15:14
  #658 (permalink)  
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"One thing that may be important: with both this incident and MH370 one of the pilots was relatively inexperienced. The emergency may have occurred when the more experienced pilot was in the bathroom for instance. When was the last time a serious incident occurred with two very experienced pilots in the cockpit? (without being successfully resolved, I mean)"

Has anyone yet seen/heard what the F/O's credentials are ? The Captain has massive history/experience, but what of his co-pilot? It is supposed ,after all , to be a crew. But I'd be interested in knowing a bit more about the guys background , nationality , etc.
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Old 25th Mar 2015, 15:14
  #659 (permalink)  
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To whoever came to their own conclusion that it was a windscreen crack that caused the accident ...

Did Germanwings 4U 9525 plane windscreen CRACK before French Alps crash? | Daily Mail Online

I'm amazed at how people can be so informed about an event while watching it all from their armchair.

If ever I needed a reason not to read the Daily Mail.

They even provide a link to this site as !
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Old 25th Mar 2015, 15:17
  #660 (permalink)  
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BEA Press Conf about to start (4pm Paris time)
but first the politicians....
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