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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

Old 13th Mar 2016, 15:04
  #3381 (permalink)  
 
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Parkfell,

So would German State law be supreme over EU law?
Yes it is. Any law from an outside 'state' would have to go befoe the German Constitutional Court. This was put in place post 1945 to stop the state implementing things like the T4 programme.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federa...urt_of_Germany
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Old 13th Mar 2016, 15:10
  #3382 (permalink)  
 
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Wiggy,
The practice of pay to fly entry for new entrants to the industry places a huge burden on the junior pilot to stay healthy so that their financial investment can be repaid, I cannot imagine how much of a burden this would be to a young pilot who thinks that they may be in danger of losing their career for medical reasons. Perhaps rather than a loss of licence policy the employer could cancel the training debt.
The press conference mentioned that in other industries employees were offered alternative employment at similar renumeration if they experienced medical problems ,but I have never heard of any similar offer to a pilot.
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Old 13th Mar 2016, 15:18
  #3383 (permalink)  
 
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Are we missing the point?

Surely all this talk about breaching Germany's strict privacy laws is missing the point. It seems to me the physician(s) who examined Lubitz and had serious misgivings as to his health should have refused to clear him for flying duty. Any resulting repercussions would have been kept confidential between the physician(s) and Germanwings/Lufthansa.

Rockhound
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Old 13th Mar 2016, 15:24
  #3384 (permalink)  
 
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tubby

I agree 100%. I'll have another look at the text of the interview but I know one of the employers who will shift people to desk jobs was SNCF, the other was the French Nuclear Industry - I guess one of the advantages of working for an (effectively) nationalised company in a country heavy on social legislation. That said I don't think it's widespread workers right, even in France.

Where I work I can think of perhaps only a single individual I work who ended up behind a desk having lost his licence, but I believe even that wasn't a permanent position and he eventually left the company.
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Old 13th Mar 2016, 17:57
  #3385 (permalink)  
 
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So how many will seek medical help, (for anything)If they know the doc may report them?
So how will the authorities react to a call from an estranged partner or some other mal content.

Only way is to legislate descent Loss of Licence insurance.
(Granted that too could be inappropriately used, but at least the innocents may be protected.)
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Old 13th Mar 2016, 18:39
  #3386 (permalink)  
 
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Surely all this talk about breaching Germany's strict privacy laws is missing the point. It seems to me the physician(s) who examined Lubitz and had serious misgivings as to his health should have refused to clear him for flying duty. Any resulting repercussions would have been kept confidential between the physician(s) and Germanwings/Lufthansa.
Actually, the privacy law is the whole point. Doctors are not allowed to contact the employer, if they even know who that is. Yes, the AME does know, but has it even easier by informing the LBA (german CAA) and they will pull his license, just takes about six weeks. But any normal MD does not need to know the employer, the profession or anything else about his patient, and cannot contact any other third party except in case of a direct threat to others. Which apparently none of his doctors saw. There is absolutely no direct link between employer and MD.
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Old 13th Mar 2016, 21:05
  #3387 (permalink)  
 
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You've not read the report. German law does allow revealing medical data to protect others. The doctor however also did not cooperate with the BEA and no doubt is fearing a massive legal action.
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Old 13th Mar 2016, 22:03
  #3388 (permalink)  
 
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Depression is a common enough illness, and can be generally managed well. Like any other illness it does depend on the patient wanting to get well, and cooperating, despite the understandable effect of mental illness. Lubitz still had responsibility for himself. He chose to disregard this. Now suicide tends to be a complex thing and many at the point of suicide tend to think logically but in ways which do not take into account any consequence after the act itself. Think of the many people who have chosen "death by cop" - Its planned and logical, however horrific the consequences.

However, it remains Lubitz own responsibility to state that he is not well and request that he is taken out of service for a while. It is not entirely the doctor's fault in failure to report, even if it were legal. Lubitz may well have been evasive in his responses to the doctors, who may have suspected things may be badly wrong but do not know or could not imagine what he would do.

I feel that the scenario with the healthcare professionals would be something like - Are you feeling suicidal? Yes. Have you any plans? No. Now what do you do about that? Even though the body language may be telling you that the patient is lying, what do you do?

Equally interesting is that Lubitz was prescribed antidepressants only 8 days before his suicide. For someone with a long term health condition that is quite recent. If it was the first time he was prescribed antidepressants (which I doubt) then it would certainly have been irresponsible to have gone to work. If it was a change of antidepressants, it would be interesting to know which one, as some of them in the first few days can amplify suicidal feelings. In any case, 8 days after taking an antidepressant, it would have been unwise to fly an aircraft and I am sure that the prescriber would have said so.
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Old 13th Mar 2016, 22:14
  #3389 (permalink)  
 
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I can assure you that for someone suffering some sort of mental illness, the fact that your DR will be able to report you to your employer will just mean people won't seek help.
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Old 13th Mar 2016, 22:15
  #3390 (permalink)  
 
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In his state of mind he could have thought he was doing everyone a favour, giving them the gift of avoiding their eventual end. No death from cancer, no grief from a child's death and so on.
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Old 13th Mar 2016, 22:22
  #3391 (permalink)  
 
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Yeah because that would have completely nullified the sounds of the screams in the cabin and the frantic shouting and hammering of the captain on the flightdeck door. Don't make excuses for him, anyone who is able to ignore that and carry out such an act is a psychopath. He may have had depression but a clear lack of empathy and remorse makes him a psychopath and so does carrying out mass murder. Depressed people don't tend to take 150 innocent people with them.
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Old 13th Mar 2016, 22:31
  #3392 (permalink)  
 
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after reading the final report we can say the captain requested the cockpit entry via the normal access code one time , after that he tried the intercom 4 times but he has never tried the emergency access code.

of course it could be denied from the cockpit so the outcome would be the same , but its a fact he never tried it.
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Old 13th Mar 2016, 23:03
  #3393 (permalink)  
 
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It's not a case of making excuses. It happened. It has to be understood.
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Old 14th Mar 2016, 03:32
  #3394 (permalink)  
 
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You've not read the report. German law does allow revealing medical data to protect others.
Yes, it does. But only if it is very obvious that lifes are in danger. And even then an MD is open to a criminal case against him, the patient can sue him for any damages he has a result, which is millions in the case of a young pilot (the rest of his lifes income in that job) and of course he might lose his medical license as a result. The limits to report a patient are very high indeed. As mentioned above, a direct result of things that happened in nazi germany. Since nobody is required to truthfully state his occupation at his MD, privacy laws would have to be changed for everyone, and that is not going to happen in germany.
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Old 14th Mar 2016, 07:49
  #3395 (permalink)  
 
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So they got no video/imaging out of any of the passengers mobile phones on board.
or perhaps they did and though it wiser to say nowt?
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Old 14th Mar 2016, 09:16
  #3396 (permalink)  
 
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Videos and photos from the cabin would have added little but feed the lowest common denominator of public voyeurism.

On privacy in Germany if you do read the report you see:

"On the one hand, German regulations contain specific provisions to punish doctors violating medical confidentiality, including occupational consequences and imprisonment up to one year.

On the other hand, the German criminal code has very general provisions stating that any person who acts to avert an imminent danger does not act unlawfully, if the act committed is an adequate means to avert the danger and if the protected interest substantially outweighs the one interfered with."


There is a good summary of the report here: https://twitter.com/Aerossurance/sta...90567780405248
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Old 14th Mar 2016, 09:17
  #3397 (permalink)  


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(Warning - "Politics")

Since nobody is required to truthfully state his occupation at his MD, privacy laws would have to be changed for everyone, and that is not going to happen in germany.
How is it that Germany can have these "special laws", even if they are in conflict with the rules in the rest of the EU? As I understand it, UK is obliged under the EU agreement to implement all of the laws passed by EU, without any conditions.

(not trying to be "political" here, but this is one of the "bugs" of EU membership that the anti-EU campaign is regularly throwing up)
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Old 14th Mar 2016, 09:30
  #3398 (permalink)  
 
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there are NO EU wide laws on crimes - only things liek th eEuropean Arrest Warrent - which isn't actually just restricted tot the EU

Most of the things that get the OUT campaign exercised are to do with commercial issues

the European Court of Human Rights (founded by the UK) isn't an EU body at all
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Old 14th Mar 2016, 09:34
  #3399 (permalink)  
 
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I think the BEA have got this one right - airlines (and other companies) have to give people suffering from mental health issues some sort of support - take the guy off flying but continue to employ them AND allow them to return to flying once they are well again

I've known a few people with mental health problems and TBH for most of them it's been a temporary issue that they have got through

If we demonise it and throw them in thw street who the hell is going to go and seek help or turn themselves in??
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Old 14th Mar 2016, 10:22
  #3400 (permalink)  
 
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As I understand it, UK is obliged under the EU agreement to implement all of the laws passed by EU, without any conditions.
ExSimGuy

Not always true ( not making political point either , just trying to clarify this particular issue)
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