Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

Old 24th Apr 2015, 09:38
  #3221 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,955
Originally Posted by Capvermell View Post
LordSpandexMasher wrote:-

Yes there is:-

1. Vastly enhance current aircraft control systems so that they simply refuse deliberate control inputs by a pilot in charge that could only have the intent of crashing the aircraft. This would include obvious things that seem to not currently exist such as auto pilots also knowing about the height of all terrain and high buildings or masts etc on the ground so they would never accept any flight route that would fly the airplane deliberately in to terrain. The aircraft should only be capable of being descended to anywhere near ground level at locations where there are known suitable airports of an adequate minimum runway length for that aircraft type.
A, Too easy to confuse with a deliberate attempt to avoid, for instance, a mid air collision. B, I'll just crash it onto the suitable and adequate airport instead.

2. As part of that vast enhancement in auto pilot systems also require that all commercial passenger aircraft over 40 seats or whatever figure is decided on (it is probably going to be too expensive to retrofit and/or fit at all these kinds of protections for very small scheduled passenger aircraft) have a capability where the flight controls on the flight deck can be locked out from the pilot in charge and an auto land sequence to land the aircraft at the nearest commercial airport with a long off runway be initiated remotely by either the nearest ATC centre or the airline's own operations and control centre.
You're just shifting the capability of mass murder to ATC or the OCC but with no way of overriding. What will be the conditions required for this lock out to be initiated?

3. In order to facilitate the use of the remote auto land facility at point 2 above ensure that there are various prominently marked emergency telephones in break glass type cabinets in the passenger cabin (with a suitable threat of an up to 10,000 Euro fine or up to 6 months in jail for inappropriate or malicious use) and galley areas that either cabin crew or passengers can use to contact ATC or the airline base in an emergency to demand that control be taken out of the hands of the flight deck crew right now and the plane auto landed at the nearest suitable airport in terms of runway length and current weather conditions.
You believe a drunk passenger or mentally unstable cabin crew? I know, I fancy hijacking this aircraft and now all I have to do is make a 'phone call to the airline's very own self help hijack help line.

At this point a pilot in charge could then only crash the airplane by carrying on materials that would let him set fire to the flight deck or similar but in principle security checks for getting airside also ought to prevent any pilot from being able to do that.
Or disabling the system....

Like I said.
Lord Spandex Masher is offline  
Old 24th Apr 2015, 09:55
  #3222 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 139
NigelOnDraft wrote:-
Your solution(s) are decades away from being technically feasible, let alone financially acceptable.

We are far from any aircraft being able to truly "autoland". Today's aircraft can land without a pilot manipulating the flying controls in the landing phase, but require 100% interaction, monitoring and potential intervention from the crew in the approach and landing phase.
So what is the Boeing Honeywell Uninterruptible Autopilot then?

See Boeing Honeywell Uninterruptible Autopilot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Boeing Honeywell Uninterruptible Autopilot is a set of sub-routines aimed at defeating attempts at aircraft hijacking by removing electrical power from an aircraft's flight deck, and irrevocably passing pilot authority to the autopilot and navigational computer for an automated landing at a safe airfield that can deal effectively with the incident.

In 2005, avionics supplier, Honeywell, was reported to be talking to both Boeing and Airbus about fitting a device aimed at preventing a 9/11-style hijack. On 16 April 2003, Honeywell filed patent [9] Airbus and BAE Systems, had been working on the project with Honeywell. Development sped up after the September 11, 2001 attacks.[10][11] The patent for the system was awarded to Boeing in 2006
Of course I realise this is an Airbus A320 but normally Airbus is way ahead of Boeing on such matters and it says above that Honeywell was also taking to Airbus about its system.

And even if no regular scheduled Boeing commercial aircraft yet has it on board it seems to be in a state of development where that could happen within 5 years if the political will was there.

Last edited by Capvermell; 24th Apr 2015 at 10:09.
Capvermell is offline  
Old 24th Apr 2015, 23:33
  #3223 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,257
Back on topic...

BEA plans A320 flight to validate Germanwings CVR data

FlightGlobal -- Investigators will conduct a flight with an Airbus A320 to validate sounds picked up by the cockpit voice recorder of the Germanwings aircraft that crashed in the French Alps on 24 March. ...

The aim is not to simulate events on board that aircraft before it crashed, says BEA. Instead, the investigators want to ensure that the sounds of selector knobs and switches being used – as recorded by the CVR on the Germanwings flight – can be precisely attributed to specific controls in the cockpit.
Some interesting details:

[German transport ministry Alexander Dobrindt] says the co-pilot's capacity to act throughout the descent has been "fully proven". FDR data shows that the first officer not only changed the altimeter and speed settings several times but also "actively used the control organ [sidestick]" during this period, he says.

"These three elements are verifiable on the FDR and thus [make] conclusively clear that the co-pilot intervened several times consciously to bring that aircraft to a crash," he says.
The article also states that a preliminary report will be published "within weeks".
peekay4 is offline  
Old 26th Apr 2015, 12:04
  #3224 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Australia
Posts: 267
SBS Dateline, 8,30pm Sunday 26th
Are our planes safe?
Examines the recent German Wings tragedy.

Should be available to watch soon on SBS on Demand
Regards RW

What is SBS On Demand? | watch tv online | SBS On Demand
Rotor Work is offline  
Old 26th Apr 2015, 12:34
  #3225 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Reading, UK
Posts: 10,894
Should be available to watch soon on SBS on Demand
Dateline Presents: Are Our Planes Safe? | Current Affairs | Dateline | SBS

"Due to publishing rights, the content you are trying to watch is currently not available outside of Australia".
DaveReidUK is offline  
Old 26th Apr 2015, 12:48
  #3226 (permalink)  
TWT
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: troposphere
Posts: 702
It was a doco by ITN Productions for Channel 4's Dispatches programme with Matt Frei,so it's probably already been on in the UK.

Here:

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/h...mand/61713-001
llll
llll
llll
llll

Last edited by TWT; 26th Apr 2015 at 12:58.
TWT is offline  
Old 26th Apr 2015, 13:08
  #3227 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Reading, UK
Posts: 10,894
Ah, you're right - they appear to have changed the title from "How Safe Are Our Planes?" to "Are Our Planes Safe?" to make it easier for Australians.

Viewable on YouTube.
DaveReidUK is offline  
Old 30th Apr 2015, 03:20
  #3228 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Age: 47
Posts: 13
FAA questioned mental health of Germanwings pilot

FAA questioned mental health of Germanwings pilot - CNNPolitics.com
frankpgh is offline  
Old 6th May 2015, 09:47
  #3229 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Manchester
Posts: 1,193
Co-Pilot practised rapid descent

Varies news agencies reporting today that the Co-Pilot practised rapid descent on the outbound flight to Barcelona. Data from flight recorder.
Germanwings crash: Co-pilot Lubitz 'practised rapid descent' - BBC News
Mr A Tis is offline  
Old 6th May 2015, 09:54
  #3230 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: The woods
Posts: 1
Practice?

Sounds a bit strange.
- A pilot knows how to descend without practising it on a cruise flight
- Was he alone in the cockpit? If not what did the captain do about it?
- What did ATC say about it?
We'd better wait until the BBC gets its facts sorted out...
bill fly is offline  
Old 6th May 2015, 10:04
  #3231 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: England
Posts: 255
If that happened, how did the Captain not say or respond the first time, or did he?
LadyL2013 is offline  
Old 6th May 2015, 11:09
  #3232 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: South of the North Pole
Age: 62
Posts: 20
FlightRadar24 has published the altitude profile of the previous GermanWings flight. Here: https://twitter.com/flightradar24/st...85345457209345
Titania is offline  
Old 6th May 2015, 11:14
  #3233 (permalink)  
thf
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: living room
Posts: 40
Preliminary Report, May 6 2015

http://www.bea.aero/docspa/2015/d-px...x150324.en.pdf
thf is offline  
Old 6th May 2015, 11:41
  #3234 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 2,045
If that happened, how did the Captain not say or respond the first time, or did he?
Detailed in the report, but Capt was not on Flt Deck.

In fact, the descent was ATC instructed and flown normally, the "practice" was just the selection of 100' (and other incorrect values) on the FCU for periods of time as I read it.

Not much new I saw in the Prelim Report, but a useful summary of the current factual status.
NigelOnDraft is offline  
Old 6th May 2015, 12:30
  #3235 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: EGMH
Posts: 207
Quick question regarding security camera...page 24 of the report says:


'Parts from the cockpit (access door to the cockpit, sidestick, security camera) were also found in the upper part of the site.'


Is this something that's been referred to previously?
susier is offline  
Old 6th May 2015, 13:00
  #3236 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Florida and wherever my laptop is
Posts: 1,314
Medical aspects: the investigation will seek to understand the current balance
between medical confidentiality and flight safety. It will specifically aim to explain
how and why pilots can be in a cockpit with the intention of causing the loss of
the aircraft and its occupants, despite the existence of:

regulations setting mandatory medical criteria for flight crews, especially in the
areas of psychiatry, psychology and behavioural problems;

recruitment policies, as well as the initial and recurrent training processes
within airlines.
This aspect of the investigation will raise the bar for aircrew who have suffered 'depression' or similar problems. I could see this being the subject of EASA ruling probably leading to worldwide regulation changes.
Ian W is offline  
Old 6th May 2015, 13:23
  #3237 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 1998
Location: wherever
Age: 50
Posts: 1,609
He was probably seeing what response there would be from ATC to an incorrect alt selection.
FE Hoppy is offline  
Old 6th May 2015, 13:25
  #3238 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: wales
Age: 76
Posts: 316
BBC news just now,

When asked to change height by ATC, investigation shows he dialed in mutiple heights from 100 ft 49,000 ft, but did not activate them

Ie F24 would not show it.

Unfortunatley I could hear but not see the TV, and they appeared to show a graphic of "him" turning a dial" sure it makes sense to pilots.

The captain was not in the cockpit at the time, and they clearly stated no one on board would have sensed any change of height ( there wasn't one), he practiced turning a dial!!

possibly as per post above by Hoppy to see ATC reaction.

Last edited by oldoberon; 6th May 2015 at 13:27. Reason: add last line
oldoberon is offline  
Old 6th May 2015, 13:41
  #3239 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Europe
Posts: 21
Is it not possible that rather than practising he was going to crash the aircraft but could not go through with it?
DB64 is offline  
Old 6th May 2015, 13:57
  #3240 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,093
He was probably seeing what response there would be from ATC to an incorrect alt selection.
Some ATC sites allow the controller to see the selected altitude in the ADS-B data but many do not from what I've read here on other threads.

I've been quizzed by a Chinese controller about a metric RVSM altitude in the window but perhaps he was checking the QNE mode C readout after level off rather than selected altitude from ADS-B.

Would the Germanwings A320 send out ADS-B data about the selected altitude and would the controllers be able to see it in this case? Anybody know?
Airbubba is online now  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.