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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

Old 24th Mar 2015, 18:46
  #261 (permalink)  
txl
 
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German news: Aircraft had been grounded day before, crews refuse to fly

German magazine "Der Spiegel" is reporting that after the accident, a number of LH and 4U crews refused to board and fly their Airbus. A couple of flights scheduled from DUS and STR have been cancelled. A LH spokesperson confirmed the there have been Germanwings crews that didn't fly "due to personal reasons".

According to the report, the crews in question had doubts that the planes were fit to fly. The A320 that crashed today had been grounded (AOG) at DUS yesterday due to a faulty nose landing door. The problem with the door had been fully adressed, Lufthansa said, so the plane was fit to fly from DUS to BCN and back today.

German flightdeck union "Cockpit" has called off any plans to strike again. A spokesperson said there are other things to talk about now.
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Old 24th Mar 2015, 18:50
  #262 (permalink)  
 
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I have watched the available videos several times and...

I cannot see any sign of the initial impact where surely a hole in the ground would appear, perhaps even a major part like an engine would have been spotted.

Yet there are small debris all over both sides of a small hill going down the slopes on and down into those two small valleys.

Can someone explain this?
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Old 24th Mar 2015, 18:51
  #263 (permalink)  
 
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The problem with the door had been fully addressed, Lufthansa said, so the plane was fit to fly from DUS to BCN and back today.
It flew a DUS/MAD rotation yesterday afternoon/evening.
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Old 24th Mar 2015, 18:52
  #264 (permalink)  
 
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Looking at footage / pics what surprises me is there is no smoking hole or evidence of ground impact...I have seen C130's fly into the hillside around Kabul and leave a distinctive pattern....hell, even the AN12's & Mi-8's leave a mark...something is missing if it is CFIT related...
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Old 24th Mar 2015, 18:53
  #265 (permalink)  
 
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58000FH is hardly "old". Well within the A320 design life.
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Old 24th Mar 2015, 18:53
  #266 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by txl View Post
German magazine "Der Spiegel" is reporting that after the accident, a number of LH and 4U crews refused to board and fly their Airbus. A couple of flights scheduled from DUS and STR have been cancelled. A LH spokesperson confirmed the there have been Germanwings crews that didn't fly "due to personal reasons".

According to the report, the crews in question had doubts that the planes were fit to fly. (...)
This is more of a sign how bad a magazine "Der Spiegel" has become. They just cannot imagine that such an accident and the loss of colleagues you possibly personally know can make you unfit to fly.

I have written to "Der Spiegel" and asked them to substantiate their claim or to drop this wild speculation.

Last edited by b8361811; 24th Mar 2015 at 18:56. Reason: Correct typo
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Old 24th Mar 2015, 18:54
  #267 (permalink)  
 
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leave him and forget about " Der Spiegel" as one of the last sources you can rely on.......
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Old 24th Mar 2015, 19:00
  #268 (permalink)  
 
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German magazine "Der Spiegel" is reporting that after the accident, a number of LH and 4U crews refused to board and fly their Airbus. A couple of flights scheduled from DUS and STR have been cancelled. A LH spokesperson confirmed the there have been Germanwings crews that didn't fly "due to personal reasons".
Absolutely the right thing to do if your mind isn't on the job at hand - such as having just learned the fate of some of your colleagues / friends. Not sure we can infer serviceability issues from this action.

Are we 'fixating' here? An awful lot of votes for a hypoxia scenario with no actual evidence of such.

Is it possible that another failure of some description lead the crew into being so busy trying to 'aviate' that they never got as far as 'navigate' or 'communicate' - hence the apparent straight-line descent and no call?
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Old 24th Mar 2015, 19:01
  #269 (permalink)  

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From 38,000 to 6000 in 8 minutes would equate to a 4,000 fpm ROD beyond the normal 2,500 at normal speeds.

The aircraft is getting on, is there any history of fuselage damage in its history; tail strikes or corrosion around the pressure bulkheads?
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Old 24th Mar 2015, 19:02
  #270 (permalink)  
 
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Absence of an impact crater isn't so surprising in mountainous terrain. There will be little or no soil covering, and clearly any cratering in solid rock is going to be much less than on flatter, soil-covered ground. Also, since the terrain is already quite rugged and craggy, the presence of a new feature would be that much harder to discern.


In-flight breakup would become apparent in the size, shape and number of debris fields. If, as the footage so far suggests, the debris field is contained and singular, in-flight breakup would appear unlikely.
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Old 24th Mar 2015, 19:03
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Originally Posted by jugofpropwash View Post
Could a structural failure/rupture (whether "minor" such as a baggage door or "major" such as Aloha Airlines Flight 243) cause both an interruption in communications as well as a degrading ability (hydraulics leak?) to control the aircraft? Age of aircraft and number of cycles might be a factor?
I understand fuselage cracks have been detected in A320s of this vintage, so you couldn't rule it out. But not can you rule out a whole host of other possibilities.
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Old 24th Mar 2015, 19:03
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Rather depends if the fixed O2 is switched on. Has been known...
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Old 24th Mar 2015, 19:05
  #273 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by macdo View Post
Rather depends if the fixed O2 is switched on. Has been known...
Yes it has but in a slow loss the descent action should be effective well before any crew performance issue arises.
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Old 24th Mar 2015, 19:10
  #274 (permalink)  
 
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Rate of descent: greater than cruise descent, but less than emergency descent (loss of pressure)


Speeds (really only ground speeds for now), are in the normal range (not too fast, not too slow).

Someone shoots pilots and crashes plane into mountain is ONE scenario.

COCKPIT Fire , loss of consciousness OR PARTIAL loss by crew after they started a descent.

everything else doesn't make sense.

A reminder, that SULLY was talking up a storm while he landed in the hudson and had less than 2 minutes in the air after engines out.

These guys had 8 minutes to do something, UNLESS they were incapacitated or PARTIALLY incapacitated either by nefarious or accidental reasons.
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Old 24th Mar 2015, 19:10
  #275 (permalink)  
 
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58000FH is hardly "old". Well within the A320 design life.
The designlife of the A320-200 is (or was?) 60.000FH and 48.000FC

An Extended Service Goal Program is available which extends the life to 120.000FH and 60.000FC but it's unclear if this plane did get this program or not. If not then it was close to the end of it's life, if so then it had a long way to go.
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Old 24th Mar 2015, 19:11
  #276 (permalink)  
 
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A320 has initial LOV/Limit of Validity 60.000 FH / 48.000 FC.
There is a certified life extension programme (ESG) which brings LOV to 120.000 FH / 60.000 FC.

I know Lufthansa did ESG on some of their aircraft but don't know about this particular one as it has not hit the original LOV yet.

In regards why this aircraft was transferred to Germanwings not sold - there is no such thing as second-hand ex LH A320 aircraft. All units either flown by LH or transferred to Germanwings/Eurowings. LH mainline still operates a bunch of 1989 production units (msn 006x/007x/008x)
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Old 24th Mar 2015, 19:19
  #277 (permalink)  
 
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Quick question for the Airbus drivers..

If you select a rapid decent on the Auto-pilot (3300pm) for a emergency (decompression) would the A320 recognise over speed and deploy the spoilers accordingly to slow the aircraft down if there was no more input from the crew.
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Old 24th Mar 2015, 19:26
  #278 (permalink)  
 
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Quick question for the Airbus drivers..

If you select a rapid decent on the Auto-pilot (3300pm) for a emergency (decompression) would the A320 recognise over speed and deploy the spoilers accordingly to slow the aircraft down
SOP AP Mode for Decompression Descent is OP DES (FL CH for Boeing types), which is idle, and Pitch v IAS/M. By manually selecting speedbrakes, you can increase the RoD in that mode.

In case of overspeed, the protections will control the speed via pitch. I would have to remind myself what will happen if you OP DES at, say 0.8M, when IAS becomes limiting. Not sure if it switches to IAS automatically - I tried to get someone else to look at that earlier
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Old 24th Mar 2015, 19:26
  #279 (permalink)  
 
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if the A320 had a decompression then the 'procedural thing' to do is descend to 10000' PDQ, squawk 7700 and tell ATC what is happening and what you need in terms of airspace - is that so?
but knowing these chaps knew they had Les Alpes in front of them surely they would/should have turned around to head back to safer altitudes and look at nearest diversion options ? - which were all more or less behind them

if you need to EMER descend from 38000' what is the RoD and time please you require to get to 10000' asap?
is it more or less than than the approx 3700-4000' pm @370kts this a/c took in about 8 mins to get to 7000'?

if you had a depressurisation, an engine failure, a cabin fire or
say a windscreen blown out (is that poss?) a high level birdstrike into the
windscreen (how likely could that be?) would you still stay on track and descend into the mountains?

but this a/c stayed on track more or less as flight planned and it descended below MSA sadly and fatally impacted into the mountain range not that far from the peak tops by the look of the pictures/wreckage

with no radio calls, no 7700, no turn back indicates the poor crew had something going on which was beyond them

I'm not a pilot but retired now after many years at LHR&LGW in Traffic and Ops with British Midland Airways (amongst others)

thanks
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Old 24th Mar 2015, 19:27
  #280 (permalink)  
 
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Use of EXP Expedite Descent button is prohibited by most operators due to the automatics inability to control the speed properly. This was quite an old bus, so probably had it fitted, but I'd be surprised if Germanwings allowed its use.
It's not really needed, as you can achieve a safe 5000fpm simply with open descent and very careful use of speedbrake. All this talk of 3500 fom being a hi speed dive is nonsense, certainly a smartish descent but the vs amber caution only come on around 5000fpm. Sorry can't remember the exact figure.

And no, the speed brakes do not automatically deploy, the aircraft protects itself from over speed with a gentle pitch up to recover the normal sped range.
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