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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

Old 29th Mar 2015, 09:08
  #2481 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: france
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habeas corpus doesn't exist in French law

So the French prosecutor is saying without proof that Lubitz started the descent acting on the FMS. Was Lubitz asleeped and confused by medics or toxic fumes already happening by Germanwings ?
How is it possible that Lubitz loged only 200 hours since 2013 in German wings ? Was he really integrated in that low cost airline ?
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 09:11
  #2482 (permalink)  
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In the GW-case I find it hard to believe that a pilot who’s mentally ill enough to do what he did wouldn’t show any physical symptoms.
History has proven that exactly the mentally ill who shows signs of mental illness don't go for the big masterpiece to end it all like Lubitz has done it. Thus , it's more about distorted personalities than mental illness.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 09:23
  #2483 (permalink)  
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IFALPA Statement on Premature Release of partial CVR Data

MONTREAL-- The International Federation of Air Line Pilots’ Associations (IFALPA) deplores and condemns yesterday's leaking of certain elements of the Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR) of the Germanwings flight 4U9525.

Not only do these leaks contravene the internationally agreed principles of accident investigation confidentiality set out in ICAO Annex 13, they are also a breach of trust to all those involved in the investigation and to the families of the victims. Furthermore, leaks of this nature greatly harm flight safety since they invite ill-informed speculation from the media and the general public and discourage co-operation with investigators in future accidents.

IFALPA once again stresses that the sole purpose of a CVR is to aid investigators in determining the factors leading to an accident and not to apportion blame or be used outside of its safety context. CVR details should only be publicly released following a thorough and complete investigation of the events that occurred, and not prematurely during the course of the field portion of the accident investigation, underway for less than 48 hours.

Leaking premature, unanalyzed, and partial CVR recordings, which lack the context of the entire body of factual investigative data, severely interferes with the investigative process, and can only lead to early conclusions on what exactly occurred during the time leading up to the accident. Any other use of CVR data is not only invalid, but is an unacceptable invasion of privacy best described as a search for sensationalism and voyeurism of the worst kind.

It is vital for the investigating body to ensure all information under their control is properly handled until the completion of the investigation.

In this early stage of the investigation, many critical questions remain to be answered, and IFALPA stresses the need for an objective accident investigation process through the collection of all the facts needed to draw an accurate analysis of events. Once again, IFALPA’s resources are at the disposal of the Accident Investigation Agencies to achieve these aims.

Note: The International Federation of Air Line Pilots’ Associations represents in excess of 100,000 pilots in more than 100 countries world-wide. IFALPA’s mission is to be the global voice of airline pilots, promoting the highest level of aviation safety and security world-wide and providing services, support and representation to all of its Member Associations.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 09:24
  #2484 (permalink)  
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So the French prosecutor is saying without proof that Lubitz started the descent acting on the FMS.
As far as I can see, public prosecutor is doing what he is supposed to do: prepare a court case against suspected criminals. Whether he has sufficient proof or not is then decided in a trial.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 09:25
  #2485 (permalink)  
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Fullwings: I stated in a prior post (there have been several on this issue) that the two-crew procedure for US carriers was there to mitigate a lack of both video cameras and magnetic locks on the cockpit door. I agree with you that an FA posted in the cockpit might not be a fully effective deterrent for a rogue single pilot. As others and history suggested, in some cases, neither has a fellow pilot in the next seat.

I feel the procedure is now being implemented by EU and UK airlines for two reasons (aside from new regulatory guidance) 1. no airline wants to be considered less safe than another (ticket sales) and 2. the airlines need to show some form of threat mitigation was in place in order to limit liability in case of a similar incident occurring down the road.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 09:34
  #2486 (permalink)  
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I'm taking the comments made by his allegedly 'ex' girlfriend with a very large pinch of salt. Methinks she is enjoying her 15 minutes of fame a tad too much.

@rantanplane. No, I disagree with the use of the word 'deliberate'. That implies intent. We do not know (nor does anyone else, for that matter, at this moment in time) whether he did this with intent and full knowledge of his actions OR if he did it while affected by (a) drug side-effects (b) some physical illness, mini-stroke whatever etc.
Do you actually know the girl in question and so have something to lend support to what you say you "methinks", or are you just assigning her an inflated penchant for attention-seeking based on your own prejudices and therefore not something you think, but merely feel? You seem completely comfortable implying what her intent is (attention-seeking and media vanity that would lead her to embellish and perhaps lie), and then in practically the same breath take to task someone about the relationship between "deliberate" and "intent" with regards to the pilot.

You can be assured that both the criminal and accident investigators are NOT going to take her statements "with a grain of salt" as you do, and will interview and pin down anyone else as well who had any interaction with this guy that might lend insight into his mindset and later actions. If there is evidence that points to this possibly being a premeditated, criminal act, it's their job to take relevant statements and facts seriously, and the are very good at separating the relevant from the attention-seekers. But they don't just blow them off based on a feeling.

Last edited by PukinDog; 29th Mar 2015 at 09:47.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 09:46
  #2487 (permalink)  
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You have to remember that this is not a normal accident! AAIB is Air Accident investigation not AIR Murder investigation
Most accidents are pilot error or incorrectly handled malfunctions which lead to an accident! Yes it would have been better if this had been handled in the correct way and due process but because this accident has been so emotive and the public and media have demanded answers today rather than in months to come certain parts of the investigation have been leaked which have lead to the media becoming judge jury executioner And has lead to the airlines putting in safety changes reflecting that verdict
The investigation will carry on and further detail will probably come out but don't hold your breath that there will be any announcement that Lubitz far from being a mass murderer was in fact the hero of the day trying to save a stricken aircraft single handed !! It won't happen
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 09:49
  #2488 (permalink)  
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I feel the procedure is now being implemented by EU and UK airlines for two reasons (aside from new regulatory guidance) 1. no airline wants to be considered less safe than another (ticket sales) and 2. the airlines need to show some form of threat mitigation was in place in order to limit liability in case of a similar incident occurring down the road.
Agreed but ticket sales largely come down to price, otherwise no-one would ever fly with some carriers, given their safety records. To limit liability you’d have to show that what you did wasn’t just a PR attempt, which might prove difficult in the cold light of day.

Looking at the end result, there is no real difference between crashing into a mountainside because a pilot has decided to end it all and crashing into a mountainside because the pilots have made a mistake or a series of mistakes. People are dead and the aeroplane is in pieces. The first scenario could be avoided by looking after aircrew’s mental health better and the second by improved training, SOPs, equipment, fatigue management, etc.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 10:07
  #2489 (permalink)  
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@pukindog and blondie2005

You make fair points in that, no, I do not know her personally. However, I do have 35 years as a clinical psychologist plus I speak fluent German and so watching her interviews I do come to this opinion. I admit it is no more than that and were I to spend more time with her away from the media spotlight then I freely admit I might change my mind.

Perhaps my judgement is coloured by the incessant media babble that want to latch onto any comment - often taken out of context - with which to further hang the co-pilot out to dry when we simply don't know. It is fast becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy. Or a witch-hunt, if you like.

And so posts like ciderman's disappear as they are based on reading the tabloids.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 10:27
  #2490 (permalink)  
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From le Figaro, French newspaper.

Quelle était la cause de la dépression d'Andreas Lubitz, le copilote allemand de l'A320 de l'avion de Germanwings qui s'est crashé dans les Alpes, fortement soupçonné d'avoir fait plonger volontairement l'avion ? Selon des informations du dossier judicaire allemand, transmises aux enquêteurs français, Andreas Lubitz souffrait d'une déficience visuelle très forte, suceptible de s'aggraver. Une dégradation de la vue qui risquait fort d'obérer son avenir professionnel
Obviously he had an other big health issue to deal with, most likely terminating his career.

Lubitz was obsessed with beeing a pilot, there was nothing else in his live one can read out of the many statements made from people who knew him.

He had many choices to turn things. But he went to work, he locked the door,
he changed the settings, did not opened the door despite his captains efforts and desperate 148 other passengers behind him. He choose to die on a place he loved most, the French Alpes. He learned to fly gliders there. Now he stopped flying at this most scenic place.

From a medical point of view he might not be 'guilty', but also from a medical point he knew bloody well what he was doing. And he somehow must have been a good pretender.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 10:29
  #2491 (permalink)  
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I'd WILLINGLY pay extra to travel with a 3 man crew up front, every time, no question.
I fear you're asking for something money can't buy. There is no need for a flight engineer and in any case the no3 would have to be a type-rated/trained pilot (albeit arguably no need to be current or valid medical). How are you going to find enough suitable people who are prepared to get up early, go to bed late and sit twiddling their thumbs every day? And where would they sit? The jump seat? Why not give them a rifle and make them wear a Stetson as well?
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 10:30
  #2492 (permalink)  
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Cabin crew can enter the flight deck any time they like, currently ( with permission) one pilot ,two or more on the deck.

Your scare mongering about cabin crew hijackers is ridiculous .
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 10:47
  #2493 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Communicator View Post
Not just interesting, but CRUCIAL...

Even non-psychotropic drugs - e.g. prescription pain killers, cough syrup, etc. - can have significant psychiatric effects.

Again - sorry to hammer the point - we need to know the name of EACH AND EVERY DRUG OWNED OR USED BY the dead Germanwings FO.
With respect, "WE" need to know nothing of the sort. The investigators will know all of this and more, and will consider it in their investigation of the crash. What are you going to propose next, that passengers get a list of all medications taken by the flight crew over the previous x years so the can decide if the pilot is fit to fly?

Some posts here are worse than most, and this is one of the worst.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 11:11
  #2494 (permalink)  
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It would seem that given the magnitude of what happened many of us have been trying to rationalise and understand what led the FO to take the actions that he did. However of course what happened was not due to a rational mind, but one that had gone beyond the behavioural boundaries that we take for granted. It would be optimal to take sensible precautions to try to put in place new procedures to try to prevent the same actions being repeated in the future. It would seem that a lot of effort quite reasonably is being expended to achieve just that. No preventative measures will be 100% efficacious, as has been repeatedly said, but if new procedures are able to prevent just one other incidence of a similar type in the future then that would be worthwhile. Looking after the lives of all the people on board cannot have a price put on it, nor of the suffering of relatives - after all the relatives of the victims will live with the horror of the aftermath for the rest of their lives.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 11:14
  #2495 (permalink)  
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"MONTREAL-- The International Federation of Air Line Pilots’ Associations (IFALPA) deplores and condemns yesterday's leaking of certain elements of the Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR) of the Germanwings flight 4U9525."

I'm afraid they need to get into the 21st Century - in a 24/7 news environment 150 people dead and people screaming (especially on PPRuNe) that it was due to the aeroplane design which is used to provide around 40% of daily flights worldwide ANY information will be published as soon as it is available

Some of it may indeed be wrong or premature but it's a damn sight more accurate than the realms of speculation that started 30 seconds after the accicent was reported - and people aren'tgoing to wait for a full enquiry taking a couple of years to find out what happened
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 11:20
  #2496 (permalink)  
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So about 25,000 flights a day in Europe. How many man hours are going to be wasted with a flight attendant on the flight deck just in case we get another nutty pilot? That is the craziness. There are threats to safety in aviation. This isn't one of them. On this occasion the apparently nutty ( but I still prefer to wait for the full investigation)pilot did something while alone. I am sure professional pilots would agree that a nutty pilot could do something catastrophic in just about all phases of flight that would be very difficult if not impossible to recover from. What shall we do about that? We must stop regulating every time there is any incident. Sometimes crazy, terrible things happen.

How does it make sense that when the captain leaves the cockpit and the remaining pilot is a friend of his for 25 years, has two medals for bravery for time in the Air Force, is generally know as a top guy that they have to get a crew member that joined the airline 3 weeks ago in to supervise?? Yes I know they're only there to open the door and not 'supervise' but in IMHO it amounts to the same thing. Total madness.

Pilots must be screened, psychometric testing, profiling, monitoring blah blah blah. But who should come in when when the pilot is left alone to monitor the door? Oh anybody will do. Just the nearest or the most junior one, it doesn't matter. All just a crazy knee jerk reaction to a terrible crazy awful event.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 11:21
  #2497 (permalink)  
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You have to remember that this is not a normal accident! AAIB is Air Accident investigation not AIR Murder investigation
Exactly. The situation is that the facts point to criminal action - to the point that an "innocent" explanation is pretty much implausible.

I really do admire and respect the painstaking work done by accident investigators. I'm often fascinated by Air Crash Investigation on TV. And I appreciate that the careful methodic approach of these professionals has done much to enhance air safety over many years.

Equally however, some crimes is so heinous that it is irresponsible and unreasonable to not release the information as soon as criminal investigators are clear what happened. They don't know all the fine details, and their investigation is ongoing. But they know the big picture. They wouldn't be releasing this information on the world stage if it was just one possible explanation - or even if it was just the most likely explanation. They are quite certain of the explanation.

Timely and transparent release of information is important for the relatives - who aren't even going to get a body to bury. Early answers are important to help the relatives process this awful event. The relatives of MH370 (and for two years those of AF447) have endured a special kind of hell. Early answers were not possible with those two events. But when everyone can see a plane fragmented on the side of the mountain and when innocent explanations are quickly excluded. who would really tell the relatives they will have to wait until the investigation is completed? And imagine the awful backlash if the truth only came out months later when it was known with certainty in the first couple of days.

There are security considerations also. Quick measures being implemented may not stop a 2nd incident. There are no guarantees when dealing with this sort of event. But just imagine is there was a 2nd event while the accident investigation was ongoing.

Remember the crucial accident investigation will be ongoing quietly in the background. And I am supremely confident in the ability of the accident investigators to do their important job not distracted by the information released by the criminal investigators. And if they find it was something else, then that will come out. But I don't think anyone really believes that is going to happen.

I would even go further than this. Maybe the release of information from the criminal investigators is taking the pressure and the media spotlight off the accident investigators, and allowing them to get on with their job.

Whenever the world changes, we have to change also. That may mean a departure from previous practice. But such change is sometimes inevitable as it is forced upon us.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 11:40
  #2498 (permalink)  
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Fire Axe

Murder by Fire Axe has appeared again. And why not - it is almost the ideal weapon for a single handed assailant. So why carry it? Has anyone ever needed one? Remove it and be happier at having CC as second person when needed.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 11:43
  #2499 (permalink)  
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Because an out of control fire is a real threat to the safety of the aircraft. A real threat. Not a made up media storm threat. It is needed for prising open panels breaking in to areas where a fire may be. I'm sure somebody more knowledgable will be along with the stats on in flight smoke,fire, fumes events. IMHO this is one of the threats we really should be protecting against.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 11:49
  #2500 (permalink)  
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Let's see. Still living with his long time teacher girlfriend he is broken up with. FA is now in a relationship with him knowing that.

Yes, pinch of salt. From both of them.

Back to reality. This is all fear based masterbation. Statistically there are literally dozens of other FAR more deadly things the public is exposed too which, unlike this, could be reliably addressed and improved resulting in REAL safety improvments.

The real mental illness????

Our own collectice inability as little scared dim-witted monkeys to be able to use logic and perspective instead of succumbing to fear based hype and sensationalism. Now THAT is the truth.
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