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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

Old 27th Mar 2015, 15:32
  #1981 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 291
Originally Posted by UAV689
Does anyone know, if German Wings, offer sick pay? or was this a zero hour contract with no sick benefits. It has gone on long enough this, young guys saddled with debt, are being forced to fly as they will not get paid. Be it a head cold or more serious issues.

It has to stop

I hope this incident, becomes the 'colgan' of europe, and with the press assistance and coverage, help from unions etc, some of the rot can end. It is just a shame that the bean counters always win until blood is spilled, then it takes the media to raise awareness.
Not the right place or time to push your agenda.

Germanwings pays sick leave as any company would be required to. The first officers are well paid (around €60k p.a.), can repay their debt in small installments and have good union representation. Of course, management would like pay to be lower, and unions would like pay to be higher. This is Lufthansa you are talking about, not some dodgy charter or business jet operator, and not a US regional airline either.
Actually, this is the perfect time and place.
The bit I am questioning is "..as any company would be required to."
I don't know how it goes in Belgium but, in the UK at least, Zero Hours contracts are a big political topic. And not just in Aviation, but many safety-critical jobs.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 15:36
  #1982 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2013
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His doctor did nothing wrong. He gave him documentation for illness and medication. Thus telling him not to work and do something about it. Which the patient ignored, the document was found torn in his apartment. Also, giving data to a third part (employer) is actually illegal for a doctor.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 15:39
  #1983 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2009
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Financial Times is quoting an ICAO report about pilots concealing depression:

ICAO cited studies that showed pilots may be under-reporting instances of depression to continue flying. Rules in many countries bar pilots from the cockpit if they are taking antidepressants.
“According to the Aviation Medicine Advisory Service database of pilots’ telephone inquiries, approximately 15 per cent of pilots who had been advised by their physicians to take antidepressant medication showed an intention to take the medication and continue flying without informing the Federal Aviation Administration,” the report stated.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 15:39
  #1984 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2008
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Time for thoughtless action

The Lufthansa CEO did say true words: no system in this world can prevent such an event. But people can't except, that there are borders to the possibilltiy to avoid desaster. So they cry for action, and rather except to make things worse.

"For once the US had a good idea on this kind of thing with the two in cockpit rule and one wonders why EASA didn’t pick it ..."

German BDL (union of airlines) want to do the same nonsense now. Up to now there is the rule, that nobody is allowed in the cockpit, if the commander leaves it. And now all the good reason for this rule is nothing worth anymore ?

You need about two years to become pilot. But you can become flight attendant in two weeks. Nothing easier for any terrorist than to become a FA. Whom will I trust more ? My FO, or any FA ? What a nonsense.

Furthermore it will be an invitation to all terrorists travelling as passenger. Whenever the bell calls the FA, they know it is time.

We all know, that a pilot can destroy the plane in seconds, even if the other pilot is sitting in his seat. What in the world could a FA do about it ?

And if something less dramatic happens, as a malfunctioning cockpitdoor ? The captain can't come back, but the FO could savely land the plane, if there wasn't this panicking FA in the cockpit.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 15:41
  #1985 (permalink)  
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I think this whole 'quick to solve' and make public by the French authorities is deplorable. It is deplorable for a number of reasons. 1. The full facts cannot have been established in such a short time. 2. A full and proper investigation has not been completed so an industry has been left without recommendations. 3. Not everyone who suffers from depression (of which according to WHO there are 350 million worldwide) will go on to commit suicide so they have actually made it more difficult for such persons many who work in the airline industry to talk openly and seek help and 4. Their actions could unwittingly create copycat suicides.

UAV - I should point out to you that Ryanair and Aer Lingus actually had the two in a cockpit rule in operation for some years prior to this event. They are not seeking publicity with the media claiming to be putting measures in place today.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 15:42
  #1986 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Over the horizon
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Originally Posted by slip and turn View Post
I can't rediscover the link to the Youtube Audio in this thread which is where i found it. Has the post containing it been deleted?

What's going on here?

The youtube file has typical high traffic moneymaking "SkipAd" advertisement slapped on the front.

Did I hear stick shaker in the last part ?
No stick shaker on Airbus A320.
Diesel8 is offline  
Old 27th Mar 2015, 15:42
  #1987 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2004
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Originally Posted by Diesel8
Overspeed warning is always active, A/P or not. Aircraft will pitch up, no over ride by side stick in normal law.
Why the AP disconnects out of the overspeed warning and not while the warning sounds?
Tiennetti is offline  
Old 27th Mar 2015, 15:43
  #1988 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: surrey
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This case is a reminder that, with all the amazing technology that has developed within aviation over the last one hundred years or so, the most advanced, complex and, perhaps least understood "piece of essential kit" onboard is the human brain. I suspect many of us, in addition to aviation, share interests in typical bloke stuff like classic cars, pubs etc etc. But how many of us are comfortable talking about and sharing our emotional well being and mental health?
Perhaps PPRuNe needs a new section to help open up discussion?
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 15:48
  #1989 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2015
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Posts: 2
"Speaking as one who has dealt with families bereaved by suicide for over 23 years so, briefly ... There is no 'normal'. It is often the case that once a person has made the choice of suicide - they appear much happier and calmer. Families say, "Ten days ago, we thought he'd turned a corner as he was getting back to his usual cheerful self and then ..." I recall one man who visited his parents for the weekend, cleaned the house and mowed the lawn and then hung himself.

Suicide is outside our expectations and so 99.9% of people are not looking for it and do not see it coming. When they look back at the recent months? Then they can see the path leading to it but it was not visible before.

If this is suicide, could the person have been waiting a week (or more) for the correct opportunity? Yes."

From a medical/psychological perspective, this post above is spot on.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 15:51
  #1990 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2011
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The leaked CVR is an obvious fake unless the Prosecutor was lying.

On the subject of an investigation releasing facts or evidence during or before a final report...

I do not see any reason that non controversial evidence should not be released. The idea that there are issues of privacy involved in the case of an air accident is ridiculous. Neither does it seem to be offensive to grieving relatives of friends, although some people may disagree. In my own experience more information is better than less when coping with grief.

Wild allegations and theories on the other hand are no help to anybody.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 15:55
  #1991 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2005
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Sober lark, not bashing Ryan at all, but trying to get a point across, that if you feel that you cannot be honest with your employer about your health, state of mind because a company policy makes you feel you cannot, then that is a risk.

The Italian authorities in the incident I quoted pointed out the driver in question, kept in secret from employer the death of his child for fear of losing his job.

How is that correct? Is this man a monster also? Again coming back to a point that is you do not feel you can be open about your mental state of mind, you can lose the plot and awful events such as these can occur. Maybe not deliberate, but a lower performance that will lead to errors or unstable approaches as in Italy.

Two people on flt deck or not, with one blow you can knock someone out, locked door, no locked door, 2 people or not. If someone's state of mind has gone of kilter to that degree who knows what they will do, look at all the mass shootings in usa from mentally disjointed people with access to weapons. A mentally disjointed pilot has a weapon in the shape of a control column.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 16:00
  #1992 (permalink)  
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@ philipat...


I suspect that idiotic web site got the news from the PI News site which is nothing but an extremist far, far right German group.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 16:01
  #1993 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: not a million miles from old BKK
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And here we go. No-one wanted to say it but it has been alluded to before.
Now let us see where this goes.
Xeque is offline  
Old 27th Mar 2015, 16:04
  #1994 (permalink)  
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The FO's pay was maybe triple the comparable US pay.

When left alone in the cockpit, his total hours were slightly more than one third the minimum needed for a US ATP rating.

Treating mental illness is not like setting a broken femur. As has been stated here over and over, the side effects of treatment can be worse than the disease.

Not everybody can be an airline pilot, no matter how much they want to be one.

And it can be dangerous when privacy concerns trump public safety.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 16:10
  #1995 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Dublin
Posts: 447
For more thread creep! checked our loss of licence cover... Mental illness not covered, in basic terms, if you're on the edge, the company will try and send you to a "professional" to get a diagnosis, but you get max 3 months pay.. thats it.. Also checked previous LOL Insurance with Belgium carrier, its the same exclusion.. so if you're nuts, don't fly!
This event is not related with PTF, Zero Time, Blah Blah, its one guy, maybe or maybe not radicalised while in a vulnerable state of mind.. could happen in any walk of life, unfortunately it would "appear" this job give hime the opportunity to take his own life, along with the others on board, although we should really wait for the full facts before making a judgement, maybe some sensitivity required rather than soap boxing personal agendas
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 16:11
  #1996 (permalink)  
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I think it has been posted that the FO started training in 2008. I also read he had only about 600 hours. Doesn't compute??
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 16:17
  #1997 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Wokingham
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I've been following this thread for a couple of days, but I haven't yet seen this particular argument (individual bits collated from numerous sources including the French BFMTV Live Feed):

1. Andreas Lubitz was a very intense young man. One of his friends from years ago said that "he would have died if he had failed to become a pilot". He clearly set himself very important goals which could not be missed or changed.

2. He was a perfectionist. This and 1. above are well-known causative factors in depression.

3. His severe depression led to a lengthy period off work. Lufthansa of course knew about this depression: this in itself would have been very difficult for him to accept.

3. His colleagues mocked him for having been a flight attendant for a period.

4. He wanted very much to go long-haul but was not accepted.

5. High intensity short-haul, for someone with Lubitz's make up. would soon become tedious, stressful and unsatisfying (as it did for me, and others I know). He could at this stage be thinking: "I sacrificed all of those years and efforts for this?" (as I regret to say I did).

6. Criticism from training captains would have been very difficult for him. Much more than for an easy going FO.

7. Any or all of the above could have led him to see a lapse back into severe depression as a fate worse than death. See 1. again.

There is a possibility than very driven highly perfectionist young men are not the ideal candidates for this career. I have flown with FOs like this, and it's not much fun, and doesn't make for a good flight deck environment . They often have a rigid view of what is correct and what is not, and rarely relax, which is contagious.

Some airlines put sociability at the top of the list of desired qualities when hiring. I'm guessing here, but perhaps LH doesn't?
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 16:19
  #1998 (permalink)  
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I think it has been posted that the FO started training in 2008. I also read he had only about 600 hours. Doesn't compute??
It does actually, check the available information again, something like months off during training, working as cabin crew before he was up for a flight deck job and so on. He started his type rating in 2013.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 16:20
  #1999 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Oxford, UK
Posts: 1,548
The AME has been consulted by the pilot, and gives him a sick note. His depression has returned. The airline will give him time off work to recover, and SHOULD NEVER LET HIM FLY AGAIN! So of course he will hide the news. Therefore,it is the duty of the AME, or his private physician, to inform the Company directly, as a matter of urgency.

But pilots who want to keep on flying, will avoid the medics altogether. Or find a medic who is too busy to notice. So who is going to be the whistleblower ?

It has to be his mates, his co-workers. Or his family. After this shocking event, perhaps friends and family would be willing to express concern to a doctor, any doctor, who should then have a legal duty to inform the airline.

Slats 11, who posted from Sidney at 13.22, has a good suggestion.

Is it possible, logistically, for an airline to schedule aircrew to work as a team on a REGULAR BASIS? A small group well acquainted with each other will soon spot when one of the team is not right.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 16:21
  #2000 (permalink)  
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Screening pilots is not that hard, however airlines HR and/or management current procedures may overlook something that the military do for some time prior to put a multi-million very lethal F-16/F-18/Mirage/Eurofighter/etc in the hands of someone.
There are not many stories of screwed up military pilots that crashed their warbird in the worst possible way. And at first glance most of those topgun military pilots seem a bit beyond of what you might consider ‘normal’.
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