Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France
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The real tragedy of this is not the reasons why this psycho did what he did, but he unilaterally decided to snuff out over 140 innocent lives along with him. For this, and being in a trusted position as Second In Command, that F/O has my complete and utter contempt with total absolute disgust.
Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult
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Media Speculation to make headlines and sell copy!
Read this statement regarding depression
Mind's response to today's front pages on the Germanwings plane crash | Mind, the mental health charity - help for mental health problems
Perhaps it needs some responsible posting as well
Read this statement regarding depression
Mind's response to today's front pages on the Germanwings plane crash | Mind, the mental health charity - help for mental health problems
Posted on 27/03/2015
The terrible loss of life in the Germanwings plane crash is tragic, and we send our deepest sympathies to the families. Whilst the full facts are still emerging, there has been widespread media reporting speculating about the link with the pilot’s history of depression, which has been overly simplistic.
Clearly assessment of all pilots’ physical and mental health is entirely appropriate - but assumptions about risk shouldn't be made across the board for people with depression, or any other illness. There will be pilots with experience of depression who have flown safely for decades, and assessments should be made on a case by case basis.
Today’s headlines risk adding to the stigma surrounding mental health problems, which millions of people experience each year, and we would encourage the media to report this issue responsibly.
Sue Baker, Director, Time to Change
Paul Farmer, Chief Executive, Mind
Mark Winstanley, Chief Executive, Rethink Mental Illness
The terrible loss of life in the Germanwings plane crash is tragic, and we send our deepest sympathies to the families. Whilst the full facts are still emerging, there has been widespread media reporting speculating about the link with the pilot’s history of depression, which has been overly simplistic.
Clearly assessment of all pilots’ physical and mental health is entirely appropriate - but assumptions about risk shouldn't be made across the board for people with depression, or any other illness. There will be pilots with experience of depression who have flown safely for decades, and assessments should be made on a case by case basis.
Today’s headlines risk adding to the stigma surrounding mental health problems, which millions of people experience each year, and we would encourage the media to report this issue responsibly.
Sue Baker, Director, Time to Change
Paul Farmer, Chief Executive, Mind
Mark Winstanley, Chief Executive, Rethink Mental Illness
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Is software also written for self imolation?
=== Apols if this has been discussed and I haven't noticed ===
Is it known whether the co-pilot disengaged all auto systems and manually fly into the ground? On this a/c type, would it have been NECESSARY to do this?
If not, the software is pretty strange. It knows:
1. the descent rate setting
2. the airspeed indication
2. the position of the aircraft
3. the position of mountains
4. the height above the ground, QFE
The software knows that the prognosis is not good. Does it take no evasive action? Does it simply carry on regardless?
Is it known whether the co-pilot disengaged all auto systems and manually fly into the ground? On this a/c type, would it have been NECESSARY to do this?
If not, the software is pretty strange. It knows:
1. the descent rate setting
2. the airspeed indication
2. the position of the aircraft
3. the position of mountains
4. the height above the ground, QFE
The software knows that the prognosis is not good. Does it take no evasive action? Does it simply carry on regardless?
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medical records and personal privacy
G.Green....Please remember the guy was I'll!!!
Surely, when one is employed in such a responsible position, someone's pschological medical records should be sent to employers as a matter of urgency? OK so you pilots are all special.. and made of 'the right stuff' but it doesn't mean you are immune to depression or breakdown.
I wonder how his doctor is feeling right now.
Surely, when one is employed in such a responsible position, someone's pschological medical records should be sent to employers as a matter of urgency? OK so you pilots are all special.. and made of 'the right stuff' but it doesn't mean you are immune to depression or breakdown.
I wonder how his doctor is feeling right now.
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=== Apols if this has been discussed and I haven't noticed ===
Is it known whether the co-pilot disengaged all auto systems and manually fly into the ground? On this a/c type, would it have been NECESSARY to do this?
If not, the software is pretty strange. It knows:
1. the descent rate setting
2. the airspeed indication
2. the position of the aircraft
3. the position of mountains
4. the height above the ground, QFE
The software knows that the prognosis is not good. Does it take no evasive action? Does it simply carry on regardless?
Is it known whether the co-pilot disengaged all auto systems and manually fly into the ground? On this a/c type, would it have been NECESSARY to do this?
If not, the software is pretty strange. It knows:
1. the descent rate setting
2. the airspeed indication
2. the position of the aircraft
3. the position of mountains
4. the height above the ground, QFE
The software knows that the prognosis is not good. Does it take no evasive action? Does it simply carry on regardless?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UAV689
Does anyone know, if German Wings, offer sick pay? or was this a zero hour contract with no sick benefits. It has gone on long enough this, young guys saddled with debt, are being forced to fly as they will not get paid. Be it a head cold or more serious issues.
It has to stop
I hope this incident, becomes the 'colgan' of europe, and with the press assistance and coverage, help from unions etc, some of the rot can end. It is just a shame that the bean counters always win until blood is spilled, then it takes the media to raise awareness.
Originally Posted by UAV689
Does anyone know, if German Wings, offer sick pay? or was this a zero hour contract with no sick benefits. It has gone on long enough this, young guys saddled with debt, are being forced to fly as they will not get paid. Be it a head cold or more serious issues.
It has to stop
I hope this incident, becomes the 'colgan' of europe, and with the press assistance and coverage, help from unions etc, some of the rot can end. It is just a shame that the bean counters always win until blood is spilled, then it takes the media to raise awareness.
Germanwings pays sick leave as any company would be required to. The first officers are well paid (around €60k p.a.), can repay their debt in small installments and have good union representation. Of course, management would like pay to be lower, and unions would like pay to be higher. This is Lufthansa you are talking about, not some dodgy charter or business jet operator, and not a US regional airline either.
Reply
The bit I am questioning is "..as any company would be required to."
I don't know how it goes in Belgium but, in the UK at least, Zero Hours contracts are a big political topic. And not just in Aviation, but many safety-critical jobs.
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His doctor did nothing wrong. He gave him documentation for illness and medication. Thus telling him not to work and do something about it. Which the patient ignored, the document was found torn in his apartment. Also, giving data to a third part (employer) is actually illegal for a doctor.
Financial Times is quoting an ICAO report about pilots concealing depression:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/0f074560-d...#axzz3VUkxUB2m
ICAO cited studies that showed pilots may be under-reporting instances of depression to continue flying. Rules in many countries bar pilots from the cockpit if they are taking antidepressants.
“According to the Aviation Medicine Advisory Service database of pilots’ telephone inquiries, approximately 15 per cent of pilots who had been advised by their physicians to take antidepressant medication showed an intention to take the medication and continue flying without informing the Federal Aviation Administration,” the report stated.
“According to the Aviation Medicine Advisory Service database of pilots’ telephone inquiries, approximately 15 per cent of pilots who had been advised by their physicians to take antidepressant medication showed an intention to take the medication and continue flying without informing the Federal Aviation Administration,” the report stated.
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Time for thoughtless action
The Lufthansa CEO did say true words: no system in this world can prevent such an event. But people can't except, that there are borders to the possibilltiy to avoid desaster. So they cry for action, and rather except to make things worse.
"For once the US had a good idea on this kind of thing with the two in cockpit rule and one wonders why EASA didn’t pick it ..."
German BDL (union of airlines) want to do the same nonsense now. Up to now there is the rule, that nobody is allowed in the cockpit, if the commander leaves it. And now all the good reason for this rule is nothing worth anymore ?
You need about two years to become pilot. But you can become flight attendant in two weeks. Nothing easier for any terrorist than to become a FA. Whom will I trust more ? My FO, or any FA ? What a nonsense.
Furthermore it will be an invitation to all terrorists travelling as passenger. Whenever the bell calls the FA, they know it is time.
We all know, that a pilot can destroy the plane in seconds, even if the other pilot is sitting in his seat. What in the world could a FA do about it ?
And if something less dramatic happens, as a malfunctioning cockpitdoor ? The captain can't come back, but the FO could savely land the plane, if there wasn't this panicking FA in the cockpit.
"For once the US had a good idea on this kind of thing with the two in cockpit rule and one wonders why EASA didn’t pick it ..."
German BDL (union of airlines) want to do the same nonsense now. Up to now there is the rule, that nobody is allowed in the cockpit, if the commander leaves it. And now all the good reason for this rule is nothing worth anymore ?
You need about two years to become pilot. But you can become flight attendant in two weeks. Nothing easier for any terrorist than to become a FA. Whom will I trust more ? My FO, or any FA ? What a nonsense.
Furthermore it will be an invitation to all terrorists travelling as passenger. Whenever the bell calls the FA, they know it is time.
We all know, that a pilot can destroy the plane in seconds, even if the other pilot is sitting in his seat. What in the world could a FA do about it ?
And if something less dramatic happens, as a malfunctioning cockpitdoor ? The captain can't come back, but the FO could savely land the plane, if there wasn't this panicking FA in the cockpit.
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I think this whole 'quick to solve' and make public by the French authorities is deplorable. It is deplorable for a number of reasons. 1. The full facts cannot have been established in such a short time. 2. A full and proper investigation has not been completed so an industry has been left without recommendations. 3. Not everyone who suffers from depression (of which according to WHO there are 350 million worldwide) will go on to commit suicide so they have actually made it more difficult for such persons many who work in the airline industry to talk openly and seek help and 4. Their actions could unwittingly create copycat suicides.
UAV - I should point out to you that Ryanair and Aer Lingus actually had the two in a cockpit rule in operation for some years prior to this event. They are not seeking publicity with the media claiming to be putting measures in place today.
UAV - I should point out to you that Ryanair and Aer Lingus actually had the two in a cockpit rule in operation for some years prior to this event. They are not seeking publicity with the media claiming to be putting measures in place today.
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I can't rediscover the link to the Youtube Audio in this thread which is where i found it. Has the post containing it been deleted?
What's going on here?
The youtube file has typical high traffic moneymaking "SkipAd" advertisement slapped on the front.
Did I hear stick shaker in the last part ?
What's going on here?
The youtube file has typical high traffic moneymaking "SkipAd" advertisement slapped on the front.
Did I hear stick shaker in the last part ?
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Originally Posted by Diesel8
Overspeed warning is always active, A/P or not. Aircraft will pitch up, no over ride by side stick in normal law.
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This case is a reminder that, with all the amazing technology that has developed within aviation over the last one hundred years or so, the most advanced, complex and, perhaps least understood "piece of essential kit" onboard is the human brain. I suspect many of us, in addition to aviation, share interests in typical bloke stuff like classic cars, pubs etc etc. But how many of us are comfortable talking about and sharing our emotional well being and mental health?
Perhaps pprune needs a new section to help open up discussion?
Perhaps pprune needs a new section to help open up discussion?
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"Speaking as one who has dealt with families bereaved by suicide for over 23 years so, briefly ... There is no 'normal'. It is often the case that once a person has made the choice of suicide - they appear much happier and calmer. Families say, "Ten days ago, we thought he'd turned a corner as he was getting back to his usual cheerful self and then ..." I recall one man who visited his parents for the weekend, cleaned the house and mowed the lawn and then hung himself.
Suicide is outside our expectations and so 99.9% of people are not looking for it and do not see it coming. When they look back at the recent months? Then they can see the path leading to it but it was not visible before.
If this is suicide, could the person have been waiting a week (or more) for the correct opportunity? Yes."
From a medical/psychological perspective, this post above is spot on.
Suicide is outside our expectations and so 99.9% of people are not looking for it and do not see it coming. When they look back at the recent months? Then they can see the path leading to it but it was not visible before.
If this is suicide, could the person have been waiting a week (or more) for the correct opportunity? Yes."
From a medical/psychological perspective, this post above is spot on.
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The leaked CVR is an obvious fake unless the Prosecutor was lying.
On the subject of an investigation releasing facts or evidence during or before a final report...
I do not see any reason that non controversial evidence should not be released. The idea that there are issues of privacy involved in the case of an air accident is ridiculous. Neither does it seem to be offensive to grieving relatives of friends, although some people may disagree. In my own experience more information is better than less when coping with grief.
Wild allegations and theories on the other hand are no help to anybody.
On the subject of an investigation releasing facts or evidence during or before a final report...
I do not see any reason that non controversial evidence should not be released. The idea that there are issues of privacy involved in the case of an air accident is ridiculous. Neither does it seem to be offensive to grieving relatives of friends, although some people may disagree. In my own experience more information is better than less when coping with grief.
Wild allegations and theories on the other hand are no help to anybody.
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Sober lark, not bashing Ryan at all, but trying to get a point across, that if you feel that you cannot be honest with your employer about your health, state of mind because a company policy makes you feel you cannot, then that is a risk.
The Italian authorities in the incident I quoted pointed out the driver in question, kept in secret from employer the death of his child for fear of losing his job.
How is that correct? Is this man a monster also? Again coming back to a point that is you do not feel you can be open about your mental state of mind, you can lose the plot and awful events such as these can occur. Maybe not deliberate, but a lower performance that will lead to errors or unstable approaches as in Italy.
Two people on flt deck or not, with one blow you can knock someone out, locked door, no locked door, 2 people or not. If someone's state of mind has gone of kilter to that degree who knows what they will do, look at all the mass shootings in usa from mentally disjointed people with access to weapons. A mentally disjointed pilot has a weapon in the shape of a control column.
The Italian authorities in the incident I quoted pointed out the driver in question, kept in secret from employer the death of his child for fear of losing his job.
How is that correct? Is this man a monster also? Again coming back to a point that is you do not feel you can be open about your mental state of mind, you can lose the plot and awful events such as these can occur. Maybe not deliberate, but a lower performance that will lead to errors or unstable approaches as in Italy.
Two people on flt deck or not, with one blow you can knock someone out, locked door, no locked door, 2 people or not. If someone's state of mind has gone of kilter to that degree who knows what they will do, look at all the mass shootings in usa from mentally disjointed people with access to weapons. A mentally disjointed pilot has a weapon in the shape of a control column.
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The FO's pay was maybe triple the comparable US pay.
When left alone in the cockpit, his total hours were slightly more than one third the minimum needed for a US ATP rating.
Treating mental illness is not like setting a broken femur. As has been stated here over and over, the side effects of treatment can be worse than the disease.
Not everybody can be an airline pilot, no matter how much they want to be one.
And it can be dangerous when privacy concerns trump public safety.
When left alone in the cockpit, his total hours were slightly more than one third the minimum needed for a US ATP rating.
Treating mental illness is not like setting a broken femur. As has been stated here over and over, the side effects of treatment can be worse than the disease.
Not everybody can be an airline pilot, no matter how much they want to be one.
And it can be dangerous when privacy concerns trump public safety.
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For more thread creep! checked our loss of licence cover... Mental illness not covered, in basic terms, if you're on the edge, the company will try and send you to a "professional" to get a diagnosis, but you get max 3 months pay.. thats it.. Also checked previous LOL Insurance with Belgium carrier, its the same exclusion.. so if you're nuts, don't fly!
This event is not related with PTF, Zero Time, Blah Blah, its one guy, maybe or maybe not radicalised while in a vulnerable state of mind.. could happen in any walk of life, unfortunately it would "appear" this job give hime the opportunity to take his own life, along with the others on board, although we should really wait for the full facts before making a judgement, maybe some sensitivity required rather than soap boxing personal agendas
This event is not related with PTF, Zero Time, Blah Blah, its one guy, maybe or maybe not radicalised while in a vulnerable state of mind.. could happen in any walk of life, unfortunately it would "appear" this job give hime the opportunity to take his own life, along with the others on board, although we should really wait for the full facts before making a judgement, maybe some sensitivity required rather than soap boxing personal agendas
