I am an Army of One (merged)
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
"They do, Kaptin M, because they can (as in...."they is the bosses"). ".
That's fine 411 (mind if i call you by your first number - after all, 2 areas of common ground within the ONE topic must be a record for YOU!).
And similarly, "An Army of One is likewise saying that PILOTS can do what is spelt out therein, BECAUSE THEY CAN!
There is nothing illegal nor immoral about working within the framework, and to the letter, of the agreed and signed conditions - and after all, it MUST be these fundamental principles upon which the airline operation has been financially budgeted.
It's also pretty obvious that any EXTRA money-saving techniques a pilot may incorporate into his operation are only adding the extra pennies into the MANAGEMENT'S pockets!!
"An Army of One" might perhaps be precised to "You'll get what you pay for!", put another way,"Pay for monkeys and get peanuts in return!
That's fine 411 (mind if i call you by your first number - after all, 2 areas of common ground within the ONE topic must be a record for YOU!).
And similarly, "An Army of One is likewise saying that PILOTS can do what is spelt out therein, BECAUSE THEY CAN!
There is nothing illegal nor immoral about working within the framework, and to the letter, of the agreed and signed conditions - and after all, it MUST be these fundamental principles upon which the airline operation has been financially budgeted.
It's also pretty obvious that any EXTRA money-saving techniques a pilot may incorporate into his operation are only adding the extra pennies into the MANAGEMENT'S pockets!!
"An Army of One" might perhaps be precised to "You'll get what you pay for!", put another way,"Pay for monkeys and get peanuts in return!
Last edited by Kaptin M; 11th Jun 2002 at 08:32.
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Companies exist for the benefit of three groups of people:
: the shareholders
: the employees
: the customers
We all know about the shareholders - thanks to Margaret Thatcher and an enterprise culture. Furthermore, if we have pensions or investments, we know all the more, because the shareholders in plc's are also providing the returns that will pay us when we retire. Hence the amazing promise of 10% profit from revenue from BA - Eddington had to promise something spectacular to hold onto institutional shareholders.
Private companies don't have that excuse - although it's certainly the case that they don't get much of a return from investment.
The origins of companies were also in the interests of employees. These were the "worshipful companies" in the middle ages. For modern companies, look at organisations such as Cadbury's, Lever Brothers etc etc. All were seeking a return from investment - but all also recognised the needs of their employees for welfare. Curiously, a lot of these were run by people with a Christian ethos. Bet they didn't tell you that in O-level history.
Employees rights were eroded to further benefit shareholders under Margaret Thatcher. Because, of course, there is no society, there are only individuals.
As for the customers, if you don't make them happy, the company doesn't keep going. So hopefully it offers a product that people want.
: the shareholders
: the employees
: the customers
We all know about the shareholders - thanks to Margaret Thatcher and an enterprise culture. Furthermore, if we have pensions or investments, we know all the more, because the shareholders in plc's are also providing the returns that will pay us when we retire. Hence the amazing promise of 10% profit from revenue from BA - Eddington had to promise something spectacular to hold onto institutional shareholders.
Private companies don't have that excuse - although it's certainly the case that they don't get much of a return from investment.
The origins of companies were also in the interests of employees. These were the "worshipful companies" in the middle ages. For modern companies, look at organisations such as Cadbury's, Lever Brothers etc etc. All were seeking a return from investment - but all also recognised the needs of their employees for welfare. Curiously, a lot of these were run by people with a Christian ethos. Bet they didn't tell you that in O-level history.
Employees rights were eroded to further benefit shareholders under Margaret Thatcher. Because, of course, there is no society, there are only individuals.
As for the customers, if you don't make them happy, the company doesn't keep going. So hopefully it offers a product that people want.
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Does it take a beanie to point out the obvious?
If airlines hadn't furloughed/reduced capacity many would have gone under post 9/11.
If everyone pulls together the company recovers more quickly, those furloughed return and we all start getting pay rises again.
Guess what, it doesn't feel any better if you are a beanie that gets furloughed or gets twice as much work to do for the same (or less) salary.
If airlines hadn't furloughed/reduced capacity many would have gone under post 9/11.
If everyone pulls together the company recovers more quickly, those furloughed return and we all start getting pay rises again.
Guess what, it doesn't feel any better if you are a beanie that gets furloughed or gets twice as much work to do for the same (or less) salary.
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"An Army of One" might perhaps be precised to "You'll get what you pay for!", put another way,"Pay for monkeys and get peanuts in return!
411A , you make the standard American error of thinking that the world begins and ends at your shores. It doesn't, and there are already some extremely encouraging signs of wholesale employment resuming- we have taken about ten new pilots ourselves, and airlines such as Easyjet, Ryanair and Go have been hiring steadily since 9/11. Others have signalled their intention to recruit shortly (and we are talking heavy jet operators, not Regionals). All the predictions on this side of the pond point to a shortage in the near future.
The "furlough" system is a feature of US operators, doesn't happen much anywhere else in the world- and it is the uncertainty of the US pilot employment market that drives the number of CV's crossing your desk- most, I should think, from very inexperienced pilots.
Interestingly, few, if any, pilot recruitment agencies seeem to have gone broke recently.
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No not envious Capt M just sick and tired of clowns like you demeaning our profession. There always runs this hope for a pilot shortage to bring the ‘suits’ to heel. Why don’t we pilots take their place and run super efficient airlines for the benefit of our fellow drivers? Could it be that we haven’t got the balls, or if we do try it realise that it is much easier to wine on the flight deck than produce the results. As quoted before on these pages ‘why recruit professional managers when all you have to do is visit the nearest flight deck to get all the expertise in the world’ Also where pray do we get 22 yr olds earning $50,000 a year without a degree?
Grandpa Aerotart
Currathers,
Boeing and Airbus are the ones shouting pilot shortages...ohh and there was that actual situation that existed pre 911.
Wine? I think you mean whine!
IT, Stockmarket, Real Estate......ummm I could go on but cant be bothered! I've got a 20s something cousin who makes AUD$200,000/annum in the money market... she just bought a AUD$400000 home.
Chuck.
Boeing and Airbus are the ones shouting pilot shortages...ohh and there was that actual situation that existed pre 911.
Wine? I think you mean whine!
IT, Stockmarket, Real Estate......ummm I could go on but cant be bothered! I've got a 20s something cousin who makes AUD$200,000/annum in the money market... she just bought a AUD$400000 home.
Chuck.
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 11th Jun 2002 at 17:16.
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Oddly enough, Raw Data, you have made my point for me exactly, in a 'round about sort of way.
If there is/was a shortage of new pilots, then FR certainly would not be able to charge the fees they do for applications, etc.
All any aircarrier need do is slightly lower their entry requirements, and....presto, "shortage" gone.
The CV's that cross my desk are, on average, the following:
Captains; age 50, 12,000 hours+
F/O's: age 38, 5,200 hours
F/E's: age 55, 17,000 hours
All F/E's have lots of prior experience on the equipment.
All Captains and F/O's have either experience on the equipment or at least 1000 hours in wide-body jet aircraft.
All of our guys will be sent to GS/sim at company expense, on full pay and allowances, from day one.
That is how you attract dedicated aircrew.
Oh yes, forgot to mention, all salaries are tax free (60 hour guarantee), 42 days on, 14 days off (days off away from domicle) with business class airfare paid.
If there is/was a shortage of new pilots, then FR certainly would not be able to charge the fees they do for applications, etc.
All any aircarrier need do is slightly lower their entry requirements, and....presto, "shortage" gone.
The CV's that cross my desk are, on average, the following:
Captains; age 50, 12,000 hours+
F/O's: age 38, 5,200 hours
F/E's: age 55, 17,000 hours
All F/E's have lots of prior experience on the equipment.
All Captains and F/O's have either experience on the equipment or at least 1000 hours in wide-body jet aircraft.
All of our guys will be sent to GS/sim at company expense, on full pay and allowances, from day one.
That is how you attract dedicated aircrew.
Oh yes, forgot to mention, all salaries are tax free (60 hour guarantee), 42 days on, 14 days off (days off away from domicle) with business class airfare paid.
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Actually, 411A, I'm not.
Why do you think it is that, of all the UK low-cost operations only FR charge as they do for applications? FR of course not being a UK operator.
Could it be, perhaps, that they recruit heavily in the non-UK market, for example Eastern Europe? That they cynically exploit the desperation of some people, with the carrot of an Irish licence?
Could it also be, perchance, that this policy will rapidly disappear once the current surplus of pilots dries up?
This is nothing more than 1995 all over again. Remember those days in the UK? Well, you won't being an American. Let me enlighten you.
Many operators had gone to the wall- the likes of Air Europe, Dan Air, Paramount, BIA, many, many others as well. Experienced 757 skippers were talking jobs flying Jetstreams, just to keep flying. There were over 500 experienced jet pilots registered with the BALPA job service (BEST Aircrew), and opportunist operators such as BMI were selling type ratings with the tenuous carrot of a possible (but very unlikely) job at the end of it. Many gullible (or desperate) people parted with their money- and yet, 18 months later, virtually nobody could sell a type rating, and many airlines were offering substantial incentives to change employers, paying off training bonds, etc.
My, how things change! From profiting from pilots to the tune of £18K, airlines were giving away similar amounts to pay off the training bonds of its new employees.
All the above is fact, it is, in fact, my personal experience.
You may have plenty of CV's, but outside your borders, the situation is somewhat different. As there is more aviation happening outside the US than within it, that is a significant distinction.
So what is this airline that you claim to run?
Why do you think it is that, of all the UK low-cost operations only FR charge as they do for applications? FR of course not being a UK operator.
Could it be, perhaps, that they recruit heavily in the non-UK market, for example Eastern Europe? That they cynically exploit the desperation of some people, with the carrot of an Irish licence?
Could it also be, perchance, that this policy will rapidly disappear once the current surplus of pilots dries up?
This is nothing more than 1995 all over again. Remember those days in the UK? Well, you won't being an American. Let me enlighten you.
Many operators had gone to the wall- the likes of Air Europe, Dan Air, Paramount, BIA, many, many others as well. Experienced 757 skippers were talking jobs flying Jetstreams, just to keep flying. There were over 500 experienced jet pilots registered with the BALPA job service (BEST Aircrew), and opportunist operators such as BMI were selling type ratings with the tenuous carrot of a possible (but very unlikely) job at the end of it. Many gullible (or desperate) people parted with their money- and yet, 18 months later, virtually nobody could sell a type rating, and many airlines were offering substantial incentives to change employers, paying off training bonds, etc.
My, how things change! From profiting from pilots to the tune of £18K, airlines were giving away similar amounts to pay off the training bonds of its new employees.
All the above is fact, it is, in fact, my personal experience.
You may have plenty of CV's, but outside your borders, the situation is somewhat different. As there is more aviation happening outside the US than within it, that is a significant distinction.
So what is this airline that you claim to run?
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Carruthers, you silly billy. What on earth are you on about.
Oh dear Mr.Carruthers. You seem to live in a dreamworld.
Yes, perhaps some day in the future your wet dream will come true, but only after Bill Gates, Dell, Intel and a lot of other providers get together and produce an affordable home based desktop PC which switches on and off like a television set, needs no maintenance, never locks up, never crashes, never displays the 'blue screen of death', is invulnerable to viruses.
When they've been doing that reliably for oh...let's say, ten years, and doing it cost effectively, and every home in the land has such a 'computer' in daily use....then, and ONLY THEN will Mr. Smith or Mrs.Jones allow themselves or their little Judy and Jimmy to be transported across continents in the middle of the night by pilotless, computer controlled aircraft.
Care to wager on a date?
PS. Actually I read somewhere that computer controlled ATC was already feasible, but no company would build such a system because of the potential public liability claims if it went tits up and an accident resulted. Another example of beancounters triumphing over aspiration.
The day of three dimensional sat nav and fully automatic aeroplanes is not far off boys and girls, then the 'beancounters' will fly them from the ground, perhaps not literally but the writing is on the wall.
Yes, perhaps some day in the future your wet dream will come true, but only after Bill Gates, Dell, Intel and a lot of other providers get together and produce an affordable home based desktop PC which switches on and off like a television set, needs no maintenance, never locks up, never crashes, never displays the 'blue screen of death', is invulnerable to viruses.
When they've been doing that reliably for oh...let's say, ten years, and doing it cost effectively, and every home in the land has such a 'computer' in daily use....then, and ONLY THEN will Mr. Smith or Mrs.Jones allow themselves or their little Judy and Jimmy to be transported across continents in the middle of the night by pilotless, computer controlled aircraft.
Care to wager on a date?
PS. Actually I read somewhere that computer controlled ATC was already feasible, but no company would build such a system because of the potential public liability claims if it went tits up and an accident resulted. Another example of beancounters triumphing over aspiration.
Last edited by Idunno; 11th Jun 2002 at 18:00.
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Raw Data
As I mentioned on the FD forum a while back, all details will be revealed in due time, sooner rather than later. And, yes, nearly all crew have been selected already.
Fish
I have the time (but this will change shortly) because...I have talented folks in charge of day to day business.
And as for EK, they seem to have NO shortage of applicants if the MidEast forum is any indication.
Oh yes, that carrier...SQ. You see, I can say something "nice".
Of course, this opinion will not be shared by all, especially those that have had "problems" there.
As I mentioned on the FD forum a while back, all details will be revealed in due time, sooner rather than later. And, yes, nearly all crew have been selected already.
Fish
I have the time (but this will change shortly) because...I have talented folks in charge of day to day business.
And as for EK, they seem to have NO shortage of applicants if the MidEast forum is any indication.
Oh yes, that carrier...SQ. You see, I can say something "nice".
Of course, this opinion will not be shared by all, especially those that have had "problems" there.
Last edited by 411A; 11th Jun 2002 at 18:28.
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411A
Ah, I see.
If you have already recruited all your key staff, and, more importantly, have an Operators Certificate, it is hardly a secret. Pray do enlighten us.
Unless, of course, we are talking pipe dreams in the tradition of the late, not-so-great guvnor- which seems a distinct possibility!
Ah, I see.
If you have already recruited all your key staff, and, more importantly, have an Operators Certificate, it is hardly a secret. Pray do enlighten us.
Unless, of course, we are talking pipe dreams in the tradition of the late, not-so-great guvnor- which seems a distinct possibility!
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Going back to the one-man wrecking crew and the "army of one" , it's clear that you find alienated workers in all organisations, not just aviation. Negative about every initiative, these workers adopt a "work-to-rule" mentality and have long since jettisoned their emotional investment in their company and their enthusiasm, dedication and commitment have disappeared forever. They have torn up their psychological contracts ( but not their legal contracts) and they do the absolute minimum required to stay in their jobs. But they don't leave.
Question is, what should companies do about their alienated workers? Clearly a pissed-off pilot can wreak havoc with an airline's profitability. One way or another these employees have to learn to deal with the new conditions as they are, recognise the world the way it is and not necessarily the way they'd like it to be, or leave the workplace. So if it was my airline, I'd buy them out, expensive in the short term but cost-effective in the long run. Everyone has their price. And a good management will have its finger on the pulse and know exactly who these cynical "wreckers" are.
Question is, what should companies do about their alienated workers? Clearly a pissed-off pilot can wreak havoc with an airline's profitability. One way or another these employees have to learn to deal with the new conditions as they are, recognise the world the way it is and not necessarily the way they'd like it to be, or leave the workplace. So if it was my airline, I'd buy them out, expensive in the short term but cost-effective in the long run. Everyone has their price. And a good management will have its finger on the pulse and know exactly who these cynical "wreckers" are.
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The point is Mr Idunno (aptly named) we already land aircraft in conditions beyond the ability of your average pilot i.e. LVP. The automatics are the first thing you engage when the going gets tough, for mere mortals that is. Simple fact is that the majority of accidents are caused by the crew. When we have systems that can fly fully automated approaches to cat3 accuracy anywhere then we won’t need Biggles up front will we? A competent Capt Kirk will be much safer.
The only thing that crosses 411's desk is his lunch and hallucination pills.
As many here have figured, not all of 411s dogs are barking, a few sandwiches short of a picnic, however you want to put it. He lives a Walter Mitty existance. Readers should ask themselves, based on the merits of his posts, are his actions, words and deeds those of any Captains you know, or is it the rantings of a retiree with lots of imaginition?
Deny him the thing he craves most, credability.
As many here have figured, not all of 411s dogs are barking, a few sandwiches short of a picnic, however you want to put it. He lives a Walter Mitty existance. Readers should ask themselves, based on the merits of his posts, are his actions, words and deeds those of any Captains you know, or is it the rantings of a retiree with lots of imaginition?
Deny him the thing he craves most, credability.
Last edited by West Coast; 11th Jun 2002 at 21:58.
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Carruthers, I think you have the emphasis round the wrong way.
100% of safe flights are caused by the crew.
When the loadmaster screws up, the pilots have to find the error and sort it out.
When the fuel upload was incorrect, the pilots have to find the error and correct it.
When the aircraft goes tech. in the middle of the flight, the pilots have to sort it out.
When lightning takes out all Nav Aids, the pilots have to sort it out.
When the engineers have signed a fault off with "NFF" and it reoccurs, the pilots have to handle the situation.
When the caterers have screwed up and not supplied enough of this, that or the other, it is the pilots who call ahead to the handlers to provide more.
etc.
Your logic is about the same as saying that 30% of all road accidents are caused by drunk drivers. In that case, let's get the sober drivers who cause 70% of them off the roads and make them far safer.
You understand nothing about aviation, and are fast making yourself a laughing stock throughout the pilot community. Now run away and play with MSFltSim again - it seems to be all that you understand.
100% of safe flights are caused by the crew.
When the loadmaster screws up, the pilots have to find the error and sort it out.
When the fuel upload was incorrect, the pilots have to find the error and correct it.
When the aircraft goes tech. in the middle of the flight, the pilots have to sort it out.
When lightning takes out all Nav Aids, the pilots have to sort it out.
When the engineers have signed a fault off with "NFF" and it reoccurs, the pilots have to handle the situation.
When the caterers have screwed up and not supplied enough of this, that or the other, it is the pilots who call ahead to the handlers to provide more.
etc.
Your logic is about the same as saying that 30% of all road accidents are caused by drunk drivers. In that case, let's get the sober drivers who cause 70% of them off the roads and make them far safer.
You understand nothing about aviation, and are fast making yourself a laughing stock throughout the pilot community. Now run away and play with MSFltSim again - it seems to be all that you understand.
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Raw Data
Not only an AOC....but more important, traffic rights, that all very necessary commodity that enables flights on a daily (or weekly) basis.
Unlike others on the forum before, the financing is nearly complete, and details on service will be forthcoming (and, not in the USA). Watch the FD forum.
Why do you ask...need a position perhaps?
WestCoast
Ah, poor baby...are you feeling left behind perhaps? Bored with that mundane USA job?
Not only an AOC....but more important, traffic rights, that all very necessary commodity that enables flights on a daily (or weekly) basis.
Unlike others on the forum before, the financing is nearly complete, and details on service will be forthcoming (and, not in the USA). Watch the FD forum.
Why do you ask...need a position perhaps?
WestCoast
Ah, poor baby...are you feeling left behind perhaps? Bored with that mundane USA job?
Last edited by 411A; 11th Jun 2002 at 22:56.