No wheels on my wagon !!
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However; to the point. How did 4 tyres burst? Was this an extremely strong right foot, but then there are auto brakes. Was this a mechanical cause?
Another technique I've seen is to use the ever popular minimal autobrake setting to coast gracefully down a long runway and then smoke the brakes when the desired exit is about to whiz by.
Never seen it on a Boeing but I've known of two Airbus antiskid box failures that locked the brakes and blew all four tires on both bogies. One was on takeoff, which was rejected when the hot brake ECAM popped up. The other was on landing, any pax with a loose seatbelt got upgraded to the front cabin. Seems like in both cases maintenance had to put new tires on to tow the aircraft to the hangar, then remove the new tires and change the wheels and brakes. And then reinstall the new tires.
There are fuse plugs in the wheels that will melt after high energy braking and deflate the tires but this usually takes several minutes in the cases I've heard about. See: http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/42422...-question.html
I believe all B-763's have brake temp indications as a widebody certification requirement. Tire pressure and brake fans are options, looks like AA doesn't have the fans, not sure about the pressure indications.
From the pictures it looks like perhaps some of the landing gear assembly was scraping, that would be costly. You can get replacements at Paine Field as I recall.
I haven't had a tire blow outside the sim since the 727 days when a proactive coworker turned off the antiskid a little too fast on rollout. Still, it seems like it would be hard not to notice a four tire burst on one side.
Exactly.
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But surely passengers - particularly those sitting around the wing area - must have heard the noise and felt the vibrations; wouldn't the cabin crew have also passed this onto the flight crew?
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Did they or didn't they
Quote:
You can't tell me he didn't know....
You have to be kidding me. High power to taxi, smoke trailing behind airplane and no one calling the cockpit?
You can't tell me he didn't know....
You have to be kidding me. High power to taxi, smoke trailing behind airplane and no one calling the cockpit?
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Amazing how much is known here about the event.
What was the sequence of the blown tires? Were all tires inflated before the landing? Did they all blow on the runway, did one or more blow during perhaps turning left onto a highspeed exit? The mess on the underside of the aircraft is obviously made by disintegrated tire/tires. I dont know where the tire pieces are along Rwy 15 , and I doubt any posters here know either
FWIW, AA does not require B767 autobrake usage for landing except for:
• Runway length less than 7000 feet.
• RVR less than 4000 or visibility less than 3/4 mile.
• Runway contaminated with standing water, snow, slush, or ice.
• Braking conditions reported less than good.
Autobrakes are recommended when landing in gusty winds or crosswinds.
I had two same side main tires blow on a 767-300 during a landing using auto brakes Max, and had absolutely no clue anything was amiss until we arrived at the gate and the ground crew informed us. It was a similar, but lesser mess underside the aircraft and there was more tire remaining on each blown one.
I DO question the pilots' taxiing on the rims, however we do not yet know where the rubber ended and the metal began.
What was the sequence of the blown tires? Were all tires inflated before the landing? Did they all blow on the runway, did one or more blow during perhaps turning left onto a highspeed exit? The mess on the underside of the aircraft is obviously made by disintegrated tire/tires. I dont know where the tire pieces are along Rwy 15 , and I doubt any posters here know either
FWIW, AA does not require B767 autobrake usage for landing except for:
• Runway length less than 7000 feet.
• RVR less than 4000 or visibility less than 3/4 mile.
• Runway contaminated with standing water, snow, slush, or ice.
• Braking conditions reported less than good.
Autobrakes are recommended when landing in gusty winds or crosswinds.
I had two same side main tires blow on a 767-300 during a landing using auto brakes Max, and had absolutely no clue anything was amiss until we arrived at the gate and the ground crew informed us. It was a similar, but lesser mess underside the aircraft and there was more tire remaining on each blown one.
I DO question the pilots' taxiing on the rims, however we do not yet know where the rubber ended and the metal began.
Last edited by SKS777FLYER; 6th Jan 2015 at 01:02. Reason: Sp
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ACMS wrote:
Maybe hard landings are normal at AA? I mean any landing you can walk away from right?
Maybe hard landings are normal at AA? I mean any landing you can walk away from right?
To the question about the pax altering the crew...getting up and informing crew is probably the last thing you'd want/should do during the landing...though seen it done along with that person's own 'flight' down the aisle...
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Pure Incompentence
This incident is unbelievable and I am surprised by the measured responses compared to other topics on this site. This flight crew should never be allowed to fly again, what reckless action would they take if something happened in flight?
Pure Incompentence This incident is unbelievable and I am surprised by the measured responses compared to other topics on this site. This flight crew should never be allowed to fly again, what reckless action would they take if something happened in flight?
Surely that is harsh.
If the tires blew on landing, the runout was completed on the rims.
Given that, I don't see the taxi as posing an additional risk.
It would be very helpful to hear the opinions of those who have had such an experience.
Surely that is harsh.
If the tires blew on landing, the runout was completed on the rims.
Given that, I don't see the taxi as posing an additional risk.
It would be very helpful to hear the opinions of those who have had such an experience.
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This incident is unbelievable and I am surprised by the measured responses compared to other topics on this site. This flight crew should never be allowed to fly again, what reckless action would they take if something happened in flight?
And, since no one was hurt...
They will probably receive extra 'training' in the sim on tire bursts, brake energy charts in the QRH and single engine taxi.
Then, they will get a line check and be good to go. The feds will monitor the training and go along with the remediation program.
It is nearly impossible to get fired if you are in the union but some folks occasionally succeed.
AA have famously distinguished themselves as goodwill ambassadors in Brazil before, by the way:
BBC NEWS | Americas | Brazil fines 'obscene' US pilot
Those photos of after the aircraft parked are unbelievable. I assume the 767 has a tyre pressure monitoring system? Even if it doesn't there's no way they didn't know about this. Look at the damage and rubber witness marks on the underside of the wing.
The risks of taxiing in this state are huge. Flailing rubber can puncture fuel tanks, rip out hydraulic lines and cause all sorts of damage to ancillary systems in the gear bay. My a/c has hydraulics, pneumatics , electrics and all sorts of vulnerable gismoes up there. Then of course there's the risk of brake fires or structural failure of the metal rims with a heavy a/c sitting on it. Shutting down either on or near the runway, disembarking and leaving it for the engineers to deal with is the only sensible course of action.
Madness. Utter madness. Something is very wrong there, the report will make interesting reading.
From the 747 manual
With a single tire failure, towing is not necessary unless unusual vibration is noticed or other failures have occurred
Which suggests with more than one tyre failure towing is mandatory. I'm guessing the 767 is similar.
The risks of taxiing in this state are huge. Flailing rubber can puncture fuel tanks, rip out hydraulic lines and cause all sorts of damage to ancillary systems in the gear bay. My a/c has hydraulics, pneumatics , electrics and all sorts of vulnerable gismoes up there. Then of course there's the risk of brake fires or structural failure of the metal rims with a heavy a/c sitting on it. Shutting down either on or near the runway, disembarking and leaving it for the engineers to deal with is the only sensible course of action.
Madness. Utter madness. Something is very wrong there, the report will make interesting reading.
From the 747 manual
With a single tire failure, towing is not necessary unless unusual vibration is noticed or other failures have occurred
Which suggests with more than one tyre failure towing is mandatory. I'm guessing the 767 is similar.
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Incredible and dangerous
It is inconceivable that the pilot would not know that all four tyres had blown. The extra drag and lean to the right would be a clue.
Yes it may be appropriate to vacate the runway but to not park it safely and continue to taxi (at some speed as in the video) to the terminal risks a very serious fire endangering all the aircraft occupants.
And the United States use tire whereas most of the rest of the English speaking world use tyre. We are sufficiently aware of this fact to be able to use either.
Yes it may be appropriate to vacate the runway but to not park it safely and continue to taxi (at some speed as in the video) to the terminal risks a very serious fire endangering all the aircraft occupants.
And the United States use tire whereas most of the rest of the English speaking world use tyre. We are sufficiently aware of this fact to be able to use either.
I am relieved that there are at least some professionals out there that are similarly stunned with this incident.
etudiant
The vibration and asymmetric thrust alone would have stopped any sane Captain in his tracks to investigate what the problem was.
We are trained to investigate and consider our options and in this case a stop and request for RFF to advise of how substantial the problem was should have occurred.
Consider the alternative of an uncontained undercarriage fire being dragged to the terminal by a high thrust 767 determined to get to the gate by whatever means was necessary.
I would love to know how serious things have to get before this crew would decide to say enough.
Many a time all that's needed to confirm a blown tyre/s and the ability to taxy SLOWLY off the runway or to the bay is a stop and RFF inspection request.
For a delay of 10 minutes at most!
etudiant
The vibration and asymmetric thrust alone would have stopped any sane Captain in his tracks to investigate what the problem was.
We are trained to investigate and consider our options and in this case a stop and request for RFF to advise of how substantial the problem was should have occurred.
Consider the alternative of an uncontained undercarriage fire being dragged to the terminal by a high thrust 767 determined to get to the gate by whatever means was necessary.
I would love to know how serious things have to get before this crew would decide to say enough.
Many a time all that's needed to confirm a blown tyre/s and the ability to taxy SLOWLY off the runway or to the bay is a stop and RFF inspection request.
For a delay of 10 minutes at most!
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Originally Posted by E_S_P
Does anyone know if any fire trucks were in attendance for the taxi back to the gate? I think I can just about hear a siren but cant be sure what it is.
Whether the truck belongs to the fire service or to the airport operator, I do not know.
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Would there be extra drag?
If it was running on rims (as evidenced by the grooves in the tarmac), there would be less rolling resistance (smaller contact area).
If the tyres blew during rollout, reverse thrust may have covered the noise/vibration.
As evidenced by the video, the thrust doesn't seem excessive. Engines and brakes sometimes smoke, so, to someone at a distance (e.g. tower) the damage may not have been so evident.
Just because people on the ground can see smoke, it doesn't mean they have a direct link with the tower or have the knowledge to identify the aircraft, registration, taxiway id, etc.
The distance between the main gear bogies is 30.5 feet. Say the height of the rubber lost was 12"(?) How noticeable would a 2 degree tilt at the main gear be (in the cockpit)? I assume there would be some fuselage bending which would reduce this angle.
If it was running on rims (as evidenced by the grooves in the tarmac), there would be less rolling resistance (smaller contact area).
If the tyres blew during rollout, reverse thrust may have covered the noise/vibration.
As evidenced by the video, the thrust doesn't seem excessive. Engines and brakes sometimes smoke, so, to someone at a distance (e.g. tower) the damage may not have been so evident.
Just because people on the ground can see smoke, it doesn't mean they have a direct link with the tower or have the knowledge to identify the aircraft, registration, taxiway id, etc.
The distance between the main gear bogies is 30.5 feet. Say the height of the rubber lost was 12"(?) How noticeable would a 2 degree tilt at the main gear be (in the cockpit)? I assume there would be some fuselage bending which would reduce this angle.
Last edited by NSEU; 2nd Jan 2015 at 23:01. Reason: Estimated rubber loss too great (and spelling errors/grammar)
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Surely that is harsh.
If the tires blew on landing, the runout was completed on the rims.
Given that, I don't see the taxi as posing an additional risk.
It would be very helpful to hear the opinions of those who have had such an experience.
If the tires blew on landing, the runout was completed on the rims.
Given that, I don't see the taxi as posing an additional risk.
It would be very helpful to hear the opinions of those who have had such an experience.
Vacate the runway...maybe, taxi to the gate...absolutely not.
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He just took the BBQ ingredients with him to the terminal, and wedged it in between two other fueled aircraft. Possibility of leaking fuel from ruptured tanks, hot molten rubber, over heated brakes.....etc. Geez, this had to be seen to be believed! I guess tea and bring your biscuits is the order of the day on returning as a dead heading crew!
Are there cockpit indications such as tire pressure gauges to highlight the failure?
It seems implausible to me that AA would not have some operating policy for this type of event. Was this followed by the crew?
Was the crew even aware that they had blown all the tires on that gear?
As has been mentioned, the tilt would be small and possibly the rolling resistance not dramatically greater.
It seems implausible to me that AA would not have some operating policy for this type of event. Was this followed by the crew?
Was the crew even aware that they had blown all the tires on that gear?
As has been mentioned, the tilt would be small and possibly the rolling resistance not dramatically greater.