Air Asia Indonesia Lost Contact from Surabaya to Singapore
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Tewksbury Mass USA
Age: 80
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For “Just Askin”
“Was there any other aeroplane of comparable size and purpose that had problems with its rudder?”
With problems being defined as fatalities, the 737 main rudder servo valves comes to mind.
Examples; March 3, 1991, United flight 585, a fatal crash at Colorado Spring CO occurred after the 733 rolled to the right and pitched nose down in a vertical attitude before slamming into the ground, and USAir 427, the fatal 737 in Pittsburgh on September 8, 1994 which killed 132 people.
The NTSB formally revised the Probable Cause as: “A loss of control of the airplane resulting from the movement of the rudder surface to its blowdown limit.The rudder surface most likely deflected in a direction opposite to that commanded by the pilots as a result of a jam of the main rudder power control unit serve valve secondary slide to the serve value housing offset from its neutral position and overtravel of the primary slide.”
“What was the result of all these service difficulties, in dollars of damage?”
I do not know. Neither the SDRs nor the ASRS reports are designed to, or offer this economic data.
With problems being defined as fatalities, the 737 main rudder servo valves comes to mind.
Examples; March 3, 1991, United flight 585, a fatal crash at Colorado Spring CO occurred after the 733 rolled to the right and pitched nose down in a vertical attitude before slamming into the ground, and USAir 427, the fatal 737 in Pittsburgh on September 8, 1994 which killed 132 people.
The NTSB formally revised the Probable Cause as: “A loss of control of the airplane resulting from the movement of the rudder surface to its blowdown limit.The rudder surface most likely deflected in a direction opposite to that commanded by the pilots as a result of a jam of the main rudder power control unit serve valve secondary slide to the serve value housing offset from its neutral position and overtravel of the primary slide.”
“What was the result of all these service difficulties, in dollars of damage?”
I do not know. Neither the SDRs nor the ASRS reports are designed to, or offer this economic data.
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Solar system
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FBW
Originally posted by speedrestriction
Never heard about C* law? Load factor demand? Roll rate? A320 is a FBW aircraft in manual mode too, except in yaw axis.
Interesting point machinbird,
Also worth considering that most Airbus (indeed most airline) stick time occurs with the aircraft at low speeds and thus sluggish flight control response but with good damping. Very different response from an aircraft at high altitude and high speed.
Also worth considering that most Airbus (indeed most airline) stick time occurs with the aircraft at low speeds and thus sluggish flight control response but with good damping. Very different response from an aircraft at high altitude and high speed.
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Solar system
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
_Phoenix "AirAsia type of accident can happen anywhere in the world today!"
Too many similar accidents and incidents point on pilot skills and automation adiction, but personally I think that the main issue is due to huge difference between:
Normal law: "now everyone can fly the automation"
& Alternate law: "experienced captain with over 20k hours under his belt cannot recover from 38000 ft"
I mean, you cannot have grandma and superman under the same skin, anywhere in the world...
Something fundamental has to change, aviate should not start with ctrl+alt+del
Too many similar accidents and incidents point on pilot skills and automation adiction, but personally I think that the main issue is due to huge difference between:
Normal law: "now everyone can fly the automation"
& Alternate law: "experienced captain with over 20k hours under his belt cannot recover from 38000 ft"
I mean, you cannot have grandma and superman under the same skin, anywhere in the world...
Something fundamental has to change, aviate should not start with ctrl+alt+del
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Not far from a big Lake
Age: 81
Posts: 1,454
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Stabilo31
A320 is a FBW aircraft in manual mode too, except in yaw axis.
The important detail is how the particular flight control law is implemented!
If an aircraft abruptly changes which law it is in, then we start opening up the possibility of man-machine interface mis-matches.
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Wanderlust
Posts: 3,403
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
With insufficient information and misinformation I think the discussion is premature. In a few weeks time the inquiry report should be out, only then you will have something to chew on. Till then it is as usual just an indulgence in our own favourite opinions and prejudices.
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Solar system
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Like most Airbus products, lazy maintenance crew as well as the management sought the cheapest and fastest option!
So when the same ECAM message came about inflight on that tragic day, the first officer was put in control and he got off his seat and resetted the circuit breaker behind his seat. That triggered an a rudder control reaction causing the f/o to overcontrol with abrupt inputs to the side stick and rudder pedals.
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Solar system
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FBW just means how the control surfaces are controlled, i.e. no direct physical link.
The important detail is how the particular flight control law is implemented!
If an aircraft abruptly changes which law it is in, then we start opening up the possibility of man-machine interface mis-matches.
The important detail is how the particular flight control law is implemented!
If an aircraft abruptly changes which law it is in, then we start opening up the possibility of man-machine interface mis-matches.
The problem lies more on the way to apprehend the problem/urgency to the crew. Flying endlessly in the comfort of a quite cruising environment for years and being faced with a sudden serious incident is a challenge for every crew.
Warnings/procedures should be more canalized, facilitating crew's choices and decisions. Nowadays we are more on the "overflow" side.
Of course you can consider more automation, less crew decision, just management... it's a debate for decades! Or less...?
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,257
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think they were aiming for July... but since then they've had two new major accidents, plus numerous smaller ones.
Tough job being a safety investigator in the country, with minimal resources stretched very thin, and little sway with the regulator (DGCA) to implement any real change.
Tough job being a safety investigator in the country, with minimal resources stretched very thin, and little sway with the regulator (DGCA) to implement any real change.
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Schiphol
Posts: 475
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Final report due
The latest official date, officially stated many months ago, was said to be August 2015.
The KNKT chief stated at the time, see my transcript of the interview at the time, that he it was clear to him what had happened.
What has happened does not automatically give an answer as to the Why.
There may also be other reasons for a delay in publication. But not announcing a delay, and hinting at the reason or reasons for a delay, is of course not a recommended practice...
The KNKT chief stated at the time, see my transcript of the interview at the time, that he it was clear to him what had happened.
What has happened does not automatically give an answer as to the Why.
There may also be other reasons for a delay in publication. But not announcing a delay, and hinting at the reason or reasons for a delay, is of course not a recommended practice...
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,257
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Probably setting a public deadline was a mistake to begin with.
In any case they were officially aiming to finish the report in 7-8 months vs. the 12 month ICAO target date:
(official NTSC statement in Indonesian -- NTSC to accelerate QZ8501 final report)
Kementerian Perhubungan Republik Indonesia - KNKT Mempercepat Laporan Akhir Investigasi AirAsia QZ8501
In April, Indonesia's Transport Minister Ignasius Jonan said that he expected the investigation to wrap up in June, ready for a ministry briefing in July:
(interview with Ignasius Jonan in Indonesian -- New route license for AirAsia withheld until QZ8501 final report completed)
Investigasi Pesawat AirAsia QZ8501 Belum Tuntas, Izin Rute Surabaya-Singapura Tak Jelas | IndoBerita.com
In any case they were officially aiming to finish the report in 7-8 months vs. the 12 month ICAO target date:
(official NTSC statement in Indonesian -- NTSC to accelerate QZ8501 final report)
Kementerian Perhubungan Republik Indonesia - KNKT Mempercepat Laporan Akhir Investigasi AirAsia QZ8501
In April, Indonesia's Transport Minister Ignasius Jonan said that he expected the investigation to wrap up in June, ready for a ministry briefing in July:
(interview with Ignasius Jonan in Indonesian -- New route license for AirAsia withheld until QZ8501 final report completed)
Investigasi Pesawat AirAsia QZ8501 Belum Tuntas, Izin Rute Surabaya-Singapura Tak Jelas | IndoBerita.com
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Schiphol
Posts: 475
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Status
In a case which has had so much global coverage it is also surprising that .. As far as I have heard till now ... There has not been an announcement of the start of the 'Annex 13' comments round on a 'concept final report' by the parties involved.
Peekay do you by any chance have any information on that?
Peekay do you by any chance have any information on that?
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,257
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In a case which has had so much global coverage it is also surprising that .. As far as I have heard till now ... There has not been an announcement of the start of the 'Annex 13' comments round on a 'concept final report' by the parties involved.
Peekay do you by any chance have any information on that?
Peekay do you by any chance have any information on that?
As an aside, I know some members of the Indonesian safety commission felt burned by the US NTSB during the SilkAir 185 investigation and some things which happened regarding the issuance of the final report. They felt the NTSB acted inappropriately if not unethically in that case -- perhaps in deference to Boeing (subject for another thread).
So I think in this case the Indonesians are (rightfully) being careful in their consultations with the other parties. Unfortunately there are always various pressures at play, especially in countries like Indonesia.
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 929
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Trouble is the amount of money involved is so much that safety takes second place. Several parties will be trying to mitigate any part that they may have played in this tragedy. IMHO the Indonesians are no different in this respect than the NTSB AAIB or BEA. They all have to temper the facts to placate interested parties. Brave New World = Money
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Schiphol
Posts: 475
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Transparancy
We probably learn most from actually being involved in an investigation. And the main purpose of any investigation is to learn.
We do not have the opportunity to be involved. So how can we learn and understand a little bit more without disturbing the proper flow of the investigation?
In my view, one of the contributing solutions can be an OBLIGATION under Annex13 to publish the date of the start of the round of comments of parties involved. Preferably with a list of the main parties. That dates and lists would give the (professional) outside world an indication of the relative complexity of the respective investigations. And roughly where the issues are or might be. And might signal important trends over time.
We do not have the opportunity to be involved. So how can we learn and understand a little bit more without disturbing the proper flow of the investigation?
In my view, one of the contributing solutions can be an OBLIGATION under Annex13 to publish the date of the start of the round of comments of parties involved. Preferably with a list of the main parties. That dates and lists would give the (professional) outside world an indication of the relative complexity of the respective investigations. And roughly where the issues are or might be. And might signal important trends over time.
Last edited by A0283; 2nd Sep 2015 at 13:33.
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Not far from a big Lake
Age: 81
Posts: 1,454
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
??????
it's been released but it's only available to the investigation team
Perhaps it has been signed and distributed for comment, but until it is officially published and made generally available, I don't think we can call it 'released.'