Air Asia Indonesia Lost Contact from Surabaya to Singapore
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In Indonesia, aircraft accident investigations are under the jurisdiction of the National Transportation Safety Committee (KNKT).
Prosecutors from the Office of the Attorney General (Kejaksaan Agung) do not get involved unless and until there is evidence of a crime committed.
Prosecutors from the Office of the Attorney General (Kejaksaan Agung) do not get involved unless and until there is evidence of a crime committed.
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I think, in typical legal system, institution authorized to examine whether was comitted a crime or not, is prosecution (and police).
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I think, in typical legal system, institution authorized to examine whether was comitted a crime or not, is prosecution (and police).
In most countries (France being a notable exception) there is an clear separation of duties between the prosecutor's office and the police. Criminal investigation & determination is up to the police and similar investigators. Only upon sufficient evidence will the police will refer charges to the prosecutor.
A prosecutor then decides whether those charges should be prosecuted in court (hence the name). Not every crime will be prosecuted. The prosecutor does not perform any investigative functions. If the evidence is not sufficient, the case will be referred back to police.
That is not to say that a prosecutor will simply twiddle his thumbs waiting for the police to bring charges, but it does mean a prosecutor won't normally be involved unless there is evidence of a crime.
In the AirAsia crash, there is no evidence that a crime caused the accident, and therefore no charges are pending from the National Police for a prosecutor to examine.
However:
- Since AirAsia reportedly didn't have the correct license to fly the SBY-SIN route on the day of the crash, a corruption investigation may be underway
- As the AirAsia crash involved death of a French national, a French prosecutor has opened an inquiry in Paris
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Take a look at this map Common law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
And SE Asia is in most of it in civil law.
But in fact that's not the point.
In the AirAsia crash, there is no evidence that a crime caused the accident, and therefore no charges are pending from the National Police for a prosecutor to examine.
In Europe, always when many people got killed and reason is unknown there is an default assumption that it could be a crime and should be investigated by law enforcement.
Of course it's always separate, parallel investigation to Board.
And it works fine. One week and GermanWings mistery is solved and exposed to families, other airlines and public.
In some countries obligation resting on commission to inform law enforcment about suspicion of a crime is enough. I can understand it, but result we can see (or rather cannot see)
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It's not about common vs. civil law. Rather it's about police vs. judicial/prosecutorial independence. Those are not mutually exclusive to each other.
They way things may work in Europe is 100% irrelevant elsewhere.
In Indonesia, aircraft accidents are (by law) under the jurisdiction of KNKT. They control every aspect of the investigation, including maintaining the chain of evidence.
The National Police is not a party to the investigation unless and until KNKT finds evidence or has suspicion of a crime. The police can't even inspect any evidence without KNKT approval.
Typically, the police waits around until KNKT issues a preliminary report, and then only joins in if the report points to a criminal conduct.
Similarly, the Prosecutor's Office does nothing until KNKT and/or the National Police refers a criminal case to them.
A specialized unit of the National Police (the DVI unit) assists in victim identification and forensics. The Indonesian Army (TNI) and local law enforcement help maintain crash-site security, as required.
However since to date no evidence or suspicion of a crime has been found with regards to the crash itself, there is no "parallel investigation" being conducted by any party other than KNKT.
As mentioned in a post above, there may be police or prosecutor involvement in a possible corruption probe, etc.
They way things may work in Europe is 100% irrelevant elsewhere.
In Indonesia, aircraft accidents are (by law) under the jurisdiction of KNKT. They control every aspect of the investigation, including maintaining the chain of evidence.
The National Police is not a party to the investigation unless and until KNKT finds evidence or has suspicion of a crime. The police can't even inspect any evidence without KNKT approval.
Typically, the police waits around until KNKT issues a preliminary report, and then only joins in if the report points to a criminal conduct.
Similarly, the Prosecutor's Office does nothing until KNKT and/or the National Police refers a criminal case to them.
A specialized unit of the National Police (the DVI unit) assists in victim identification and forensics. The Indonesian Army (TNI) and local law enforcement help maintain crash-site security, as required.
However since to date no evidence or suspicion of a crime has been found with regards to the crash itself, there is no "parallel investigation" being conducted by any party other than KNKT.
As mentioned in a post above, there may be police or prosecutor involvement in a possible corruption probe, etc.
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For those who can get Channel News Asia on cable or satellite TV, they will televise a documentary of this accident on Monday 6th April at 8pm Singapore local time (UTC +8).
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v...34&pnref=story
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v...34&pnref=story
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They are doing their job.
KNKT stated that the full investigation will take 6-7 months (from January) and they appear to be on track to finish their report in June or early July.
KNKT stated that the full investigation will take 6-7 months (from January) and they appear to be on track to finish their report in June or early July.
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One of our company check pilots recently visited Airbus. They let slip the following:
The a/c had a rudder trim limiter fault. ( MEL or airborne not known)
For some reason the captain pulled the CB's for both FAC's.
While he was out of his seat the FO applied bank to offset a rudder trim input.
The aircraft quickly pitched up to 45 deg, then 105 deg bank......
The a/c had a rudder trim limiter fault. ( MEL or airborne not known)
For some reason the captain pulled the CB's for both FAC's.
While he was out of his seat the FO applied bank to offset a rudder trim input.
The aircraft quickly pitched up to 45 deg, then 105 deg bank......
It will be interesting to see if this rumor is substantiated by FDR data when the report is released.
If this is what happened, it makes Mr Bonin look like a pretty smooth stick.
If this is what happened, it makes Mr Bonin look like a pretty smooth stick.
Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 9th Apr 2015 at 18:08.
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Flick roll or what?
My jump to conclusion......How can this manoeuver happen in the described sequence?(yaw, roll then pitchup) even with all protection out of action?
Must be misunderstood third hand word of mouth Wow!
Must be misunderstood third hand word of mouth Wow!
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Left his seat?
Other reports state that he never left his seat. More likely he disabled the FAC's on the overhead panel. If only they were releasing the report as soon as the Germans/French did.
We were briefed that Rudder limiter fault was reoccurring. Capt jumped out of seat to pull breakers. Aircraft started to slowly roll unnoticed by FO until over 40 degrees due to rudder. This was rapidly corrected. Then perhaps onset of "the leans" caused FO to rapidly roll aircraft back in the original direction, causing upset and loss of control.
Time will tell. Report in June they say.
Time will tell. Report in June they say.
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Originally Posted by donpizmeov
Aircraft started to slowly roll unnoticed by FO until over 40 degrees due to rudder. This was rapidly corrected. Then perhaps onset of "the leans" caused FO to rapidly roll aircraft back in the original direction, causing upset and loss of control.
Yes, time will tell. Will the data really be understood?
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B) If you get a climb RA anyways, enter a very gentle climb using your command authority in an emergency situation.
C) If you can't climb, stay level as the other aircraft will have gotten a descend RA and there is enough time given in an RA that the other aircraft will have time to descend.
D) Even if you encounter the very remote event where both of you maintain level because the other guy did not descend, the odds are that you are not on an exact collision course but forecast to be in a given area at the same time and hopefully will not collide. Good Luck.
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A) Your aircraft is likely to be configured in such a way that the TCAS system is aware of this and they will coordinate in such a way that you will not get a climb RA.
The manual clearly states that the TCAS may issue climb commands that exceeds the climb capability of the aircraft.
Does this stop me from cruising at maximum altitudes? No.
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Will all be revealed officially by the Indonesians shortly.
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#1) Above a certain altitude, most modern aircraft have no TCAS climb RA's programmed into them(I'll call it a critical altitude).
#2) As that critical altitude is approached, aircraft performance obviously decreases and depending on aircraft weight and environmental conditions, the aircraft reaches a point where it cannot meet the required climb performance. This point will vary from flight to flight.
These are only guesses.
I flew a turboprop where on a hot day at max takeoff weight, we truly struggled to get to an altitude well below the altitude listed as maximum for Climb RA's on our aircraft.