Air Asia Indonesia Lost Contact from Surabaya to Singapore
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USCMProbe:
Are you suggesting perhaps, that Airbus pilots in the east rely too much on the automation and when things get sticky (the the automation won't help), prefer to vector around or away?
Are you suggesting perhaps, that Airbus pilots in the east rely too much on the automation and when things get sticky (the the automation won't help), prefer to vector around or away?
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i can't help thinking some of what's being reported is coming straight from here, or from people posting here, so please consider the implications of your speculations.
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I think we can all agree that if we were all privy to the actual CVR transcript and FDR data we could make a better guess on what really happened to AirAsia.
Press reports, citing people ''in the know'' or "familiar with the investigation" can end up sending us all on a wild goose chase.
When I read the article, posted here by BG47, I thought: Company Man, trying to trouble shoot "INTERMITTENT" problem that could not be reproduced on the ground by Mx. Didn't want to get stuck at the next stop with a plane that would be grounded somehow.
Sometimes pilots have been given information by other sources which allow them to think they KNOW BETTER or KNOW MORE on how to get things done. I've seen it before, not to this tragic end however.
ADVICE:
IF you are having ANY Problems with a plane, do not get close to a hazard like a thunderstorm. Instead, stay way far away from additional hazard and accomplish checklist WHILE MAINTAINING CONTROL OF THE PLANE.
DO not go into thunderstorm without both pilots securely strapped in to their seats and have an "OUT" in case things get too hairy.
I do not know how the legal system works in indonesia. BUT BOY OH BOY I would think the lawsuits could cripple air asia if in a country like the USA.
Press reports, citing people ''in the know'' or "familiar with the investigation" can end up sending us all on a wild goose chase.
When I read the article, posted here by BG47, I thought: Company Man, trying to trouble shoot "INTERMITTENT" problem that could not be reproduced on the ground by Mx. Didn't want to get stuck at the next stop with a plane that would be grounded somehow.
Sometimes pilots have been given information by other sources which allow them to think they KNOW BETTER or KNOW MORE on how to get things done. I've seen it before, not to this tragic end however.
ADVICE:
IF you are having ANY Problems with a plane, do not get close to a hazard like a thunderstorm. Instead, stay way far away from additional hazard and accomplish checklist WHILE MAINTAINING CONTROL OF THE PLANE.
DO not go into thunderstorm without both pilots securely strapped in to their seats and have an "OUT" in case things get too hairy.
I do not know how the legal system works in indonesia. BUT BOY OH BOY I would think the lawsuits could cripple air asia if in a country like the USA.
The 800lb Gorilla in the room no one seems to want to mention is ab intro pilots who get most of their training in simulators. They never get the opportunity to build a solid background and learn solid basic stick and rudder skills. It now appears two airbuses have been lost to pilots with similar ab intro training.
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Next to suicide
Of course this is all in the area of pure speculation in the absence of reliable facts. But I have to say this. Trying to fly an aircaft in bad weather, with all protection disabled is next to committing suicide. That too by a junior pilot and the captain not in command. How many agree with me? Tony Fernandez in a recent TV interview has said, he called in the Airbus to review all the airline procedures. I am sure there will be many holes in their SOP.
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hitech
bringing in airbus to review written SOPs is a waste of time...you have to look underneath the rug, where the UNWRITTEN things are! Where the "wink and nod" things are.
IF I was a doolittle raider and had to accomplish my mission, I would do certain things to get the job done.
BUT an airline operation is a commercial enterprise and does not require heroic activities WHEN NON HEROIC MEASURES will work just fine.
problems? bad wx ahead, turn around and get it fixed on the ground. In this case, the PEN is mightier than the sword!
bringing in airbus to review written SOPs is a waste of time...you have to look underneath the rug, where the UNWRITTEN things are! Where the "wink and nod" things are.
IF I was a doolittle raider and had to accomplish my mission, I would do certain things to get the job done.
BUT an airline operation is a commercial enterprise and does not require heroic activities WHEN NON HEROIC MEASURES will work just fine.
problems? bad wx ahead, turn around and get it fixed on the ground. In this case, the PEN is mightier than the sword!
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The Airbus CEO is not risk averse
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When I was flying out of Jakarta, it always blew my mind that Lion Air and Air Asia would have co-pilots with 200 hours TT that's it. There is NO WAY these pilots should be flying A-320's and 737-900's. They come out of a C-172 in the pattern at Halim then into the airline.
It's insanity to think they have any stick and rudder skill to handle something when it goes wrong. They have never flown in thunderstorms, they have no idea how to fly but are taught how to push buttons. Remember lion air going into Bali. The F/O flew a perfectly good 737 right into the water. Tony needs to pay up and hire experienced pilots not pay for play 200 hour kids.
It's insanity to think they have any stick and rudder skill to handle something when it goes wrong. They have never flown in thunderstorms, they have no idea how to fly but are taught how to push buttons. Remember lion air going into Bali. The F/O flew a perfectly good 737 right into the water. Tony needs to pay up and hire experienced pilots not pay for play 200 hour kids.
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Mach92
Same in UK & Europe unfortunatly it is aviation today. The CEO's seem happy to live with it on their conscience. As far as they are concerned they have a flying licence that is all that is required. We are all the same just an expense item.
Same in UK & Europe unfortunatly it is aviation today. The CEO's seem happy to live with it on their conscience. As far as they are concerned they have a flying licence that is all that is required. We are all the same just an expense item.
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xAAs ARE YOU LISTENING??
"The 800lb Gorilla in the room no one seems to want to mention is ab intro pilots who get most of their training in simulators. They never get the opportunity to build a solid background and learn solid basic stick and rudder skills."
What about the 800kg gorilla who tells pilots they are NOT ALLOWED to handfly the aircraft >FL290 because it's RVSM and even with their +/- 100ft instrument rating they cannot be trusted?
So most airline crews these days are instantly test-pilots when disconnecting the APs, or having them quit at altitudes >FL290, in probably complex situations, where the very different handling characteristics represent an aircraft THEY HAVE NEVER PREVIOUSLY FLOWN.
Don't please counter with flannel about simulator training, at some distant date in the past during type qualification. They don't and can't (though they try valiantly to!) reproduce accurately the peculiar handling qualities of the beast and certainly are unable to reproduce the "fright factor" inherent in that scenario. So no surprise that some of the recorded control inputs, whether FBW or "conventional" are causing grief to them and their unfortunate payload and causing bafflement amongst the professionals out there who know what it's like firsthand and are studying the aftermath.
I don't think the great mass of SLF will be impressed to know that the Bonoboes up front may not have this basic qualification and experience.
What about the 800kg gorilla who tells pilots they are NOT ALLOWED to handfly the aircraft >FL290 because it's RVSM and even with their +/- 100ft instrument rating they cannot be trusted?
So most airline crews these days are instantly test-pilots when disconnecting the APs, or having them quit at altitudes >FL290, in probably complex situations, where the very different handling characteristics represent an aircraft THEY HAVE NEVER PREVIOUSLY FLOWN.
Don't please counter with flannel about simulator training, at some distant date in the past during type qualification. They don't and can't (though they try valiantly to!) reproduce accurately the peculiar handling qualities of the beast and certainly are unable to reproduce the "fright factor" inherent in that scenario. So no surprise that some of the recorded control inputs, whether FBW or "conventional" are causing grief to them and their unfortunate payload and causing bafflement amongst the professionals out there who know what it's like firsthand and are studying the aftermath.
I don't think the great mass of SLF will be impressed to know that the Bonoboes up front may not have this basic qualification and experience.
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Sailvi:
The 800lb Gorilla in the room no one seems to want to mention is ab initio pilots who get most of their training in simulators.
The 800lb Gorilla in the room no one seems to want to mention is ab initio pilots who get most of their training in simulators.
When is the huge imbalance in CRM training going to be addressed and redressed?
Remember lion air going into Bali. The F/O flew a perfectly good 737 right into the water.
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Actual Dual FAC Failure incident. Plane did NOT drop out of the sky.
Someone knew who to fly (Weather/Altitude significantly different)
ASRS Report Number.Accession Number : 749287
Reference : X
ATC / Advisory.Tower : DEN.Tower
Aircraft Operator : Air Carrier
Make Model Name : A320
Crew Size.Number Of Crew : 2
Operating Under FAR Part : Part 121
Flight Plan : IFR
Mission : Passenger
Flight Phase : Initial Climb
Route In Use.SID : N/S
Airspace.Class B : DEN.B
ASRS Report Number.Accession Number : 749287
Reference : X
ATC / Advisory.Tower : DEN.Tower
Aircraft Operator : Air Carrier
Make Model Name : A320
Crew Size.Number Of Crew : 2
Operating Under FAR Part : Part 121
Flight Plan : IFR
Mission : Passenger
Flight Phase : Initial Climb
Route In Use.SID : N/S
Airspace.Class B : DEN.B
Synopsis
A320 FLT CREW EXPERIENCES DUAL FLT AUGMENTATION COMPUTER FAILURE SHORTLY AFTER TKOF CAUSING AUTOTHRUST DISCONNECT, ALT LAW, AND LOSS OF SPEED TAPE. BOTH FLT AUGMENTATION COMPUTERS ARE SUCCESSFULLY RESET BUT FLT CREW ELECTS TO RETURN TO DEN.
Narrative: 1
DURING INITIAL CLBOUT THE ECAM INDICATED, AUTOTHRUST DISCONNECT, ALT LAW, AND PROTECTIONS LOST. WE CONTACTED DEP CTL, CLBED TO 10000 FT AS DIRECTED AND ASKED FOR A VECTOR TO DEAL WITH OUR FLT CTL ISSUE. WE CLEANED UP THE ACFT IN THE CLB. RAN THE AFTER TKOF CHKLIST AND THE ECAM. THE ECAM DIRECTED US TO TURN OFF AND ON THE FAC #1 AND #2. WE DID THAT AND RECOVERED ALL SYS NORMALLY. WE CONTACTED MAINT AND DISPATCH, EXPLAINED OUR ISSUE, AND TOLD THEM WE PLANNED TO LAND BACK AT DEN. WE ASKED FOR AND RECEIVED VECTORS TO A VISUAL RWY 16L AT DEN. LNDG AND TAXI IN WERE UNEVENTFUL.
A320 FLT CREW EXPERIENCES DUAL FLT AUGMENTATION COMPUTER FAILURE SHORTLY AFTER TKOF CAUSING AUTOTHRUST DISCONNECT, ALT LAW, AND LOSS OF SPEED TAPE. BOTH FLT AUGMENTATION COMPUTERS ARE SUCCESSFULLY RESET BUT FLT CREW ELECTS TO RETURN TO DEN.
Narrative: 1
DURING INITIAL CLBOUT THE ECAM INDICATED, AUTOTHRUST DISCONNECT, ALT LAW, AND PROTECTIONS LOST. WE CONTACTED DEP CTL, CLBED TO 10000 FT AS DIRECTED AND ASKED FOR A VECTOR TO DEAL WITH OUR FLT CTL ISSUE. WE CLEANED UP THE ACFT IN THE CLB. RAN THE AFTER TKOF CHKLIST AND THE ECAM. THE ECAM DIRECTED US TO TURN OFF AND ON THE FAC #1 AND #2. WE DID THAT AND RECOVERED ALL SYS NORMALLY. WE CONTACTED MAINT AND DISPATCH, EXPLAINED OUR ISSUE, AND TOLD THEM WE PLANNED TO LAND BACK AT DEN. WE ASKED FOR AND RECEIVED VECTORS TO A VISUAL RWY 16L AT DEN. LNDG AND TAXI IN WERE UNEVENTFUL.
And the gorilla's room-mate, is CRM training that tells this ab initio that all his captains are incompetent idiots who must be challenged, contradicted and ignored at all times.
When is the huge imbalance in CRM training going to be addressed and redressed?
When is the huge imbalance in CRM training going to be addressed and redressed?
You'd probably prefer it if we went back to the days where FO's kept their mouths shut if they were unhappy with the Captain's actions
Air Asia Indonesia Lost Contact from Surabaya to Singapore
Well manually turning off the FAC in this manner sounds like a very desperate attemtp to regain control of the aircraft... Rightly or not they muss have felt that things were completely out of hand...
From the partially leaked report should we understand that they actually managed to recover some sort of control (I.e that turning off the FAC did indeed "work") but where just to far behind the curve ?
From the partially leaked report should we understand that they actually managed to recover some sort of control (I.e that turning off the FAC did indeed "work") but where just to far behind the curve ?
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Experience - how?
We keep seeing people criticising the level of experience of new co-pilots, but just how are new pilots supposed to build up that experience? I had 2000 hours on a/c like the Dak and B170 before I even flew a turboprop - where can you get that sort of flying nowadays? I agree with everything that has been said but this is the real world and the only way to change things would be to make the licence requirements tougher and I can't see that happening. Someone has to take on ab initio copilots and, if it's legal, they will.
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Coagie & ekw
You're way overestimating the influence of what you call 'PR' people. Even when they exist they're way down the pecking order and I don't think the (company) lawyers would pay too much attention to them.
You're way overestimating the influence of what you call 'PR' people. Even when they exist they're way down the pecking order and I don't think the (company) lawyers would pay too much attention to them.
I don't think either one of us indicated that PR people had any status or power over the lawyers, manufacturer, airline or anyone else. I did not write that the PR people would "command" the lawyers, I wrote "convince", as in advise. The lawyers might seek the advice of PR people. For instance, they might want to know "How do we go about portraying Airbus (or whomever) as the victim?".
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The incident reported in the AAIB bulletin 1/2015, concerning a C525 CJ2 may be worth reading.
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...CR%2001-15.pdf
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...CR%2001-15.pdf
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Seems to me
Seems to me from the various different interpretations of the logic of the aircraft systems on this forum from people that fly this type , that any time you design a computer system and complicated logic to join control stick to control surfaces, in unusual situations you've got potential problems.